jmd
Though there may indeed be an arbitrariness as to where a circle begins from a mathematical perspective, and it may be used symbolically for the Divine precisely because of the sense in which it has neither beginning nor end, some traditions have developed both for the ordering of the evangelists when depicting them around a mandorla - some of the reflections I make in the thread on XXI - Le Monde - and the ordering of the suits.
Of course, many depictions in Catholic churches follow a different, but also very specific, order. And the ordering according to their appearance in the New Testament, as mentioned by catboxer, is important.
With regards to the four suits, I have at times wondered if the visual depiction as used by the French suits has a 'better' fit then the etymological one we are so often used to reading about in books written in English. I have also mentioned similar words in the thread Swords - Intellect or Conflict, and given there one of the alternate correlations between the 'modern' (French) suits and those of Tarot (Mamluk/Spanish/Italian/Provençal).
I was particularly interested by Ross Calwell's earlier alphabetical suggestion - though did not reply at the time:
Huck's comments likewise make for deeper reflections. I remember also mentioning, either here or on LTarot or in an e.mail, the Chinese numeral ascendance as probably being the progenitor of the Mamluk suits, which eventually became the four Tarot suits. These, of course, undergo linguistic and visual transformation as they migrate from place to place... still, these become important, for sometimes remnants of important order is maintained, but the reasons for the order forgotten.
Huck's analysis of the number of 'points' upon the suits is thus another of those possibly important reflections - certainly showing that even in the pips, reflections beyond obvious gaming needs was undoubtedly made.
Of course, many depictions in Catholic churches follow a different, but also very specific, order. And the ordering according to their appearance in the New Testament, as mentioned by catboxer, is important.
With regards to the four suits, I have at times wondered if the visual depiction as used by the French suits has a 'better' fit then the etymological one we are so often used to reading about in books written in English. I have also mentioned similar words in the thread Swords - Intellect or Conflict, and given there one of the alternate correlations between the 'modern' (French) suits and those of Tarot (Mamluk/Spanish/Italian/Provençal).
I was particularly interested by Ross Calwell's earlier alphabetical suggestion - though did not reply at the time:
- Atouts (trumps)
Batons (Wands)
Coupes (Cups)
Deniers (Coins)
Epées (Swords)
Huck's comments likewise make for deeper reflections. I remember also mentioning, either here or on LTarot or in an e.mail, the Chinese numeral ascendance as probably being the progenitor of the Mamluk suits, which eventually became the four Tarot suits. These, of course, undergo linguistic and visual transformation as they migrate from place to place... still, these become important, for sometimes remnants of important order is maintained, but the reasons for the order forgotten.
Huck's analysis of the number of 'points' upon the suits is thus another of those possibly important reflections - certainly showing that even in the pips, reflections beyond obvious gaming needs was undoubtedly made.