Aces as roots of the 4 elements

ravenest

If you are talking about the major arcana, you might convince me, but the minors are meant clearly for divination, and they constitute half the deck.

They may have been meant for divination or they may have been 'meant for' gambling ... I wasn't disputing either ... what I am saying is the usage now of something like the Thoth deck, which has sooo much and so many other eclectic systems coded into / onto it that its value is now much higher than divination ... if you cant see that in the Thoth deck, including the pips (more than half the deck) then you haven't been looking long enough and/or deep enough.
 

ravenest

The point I was making is that looking at astrological interpretations of Venus in Aquarius will not give you the meaning of the decan of Venus in Aquarius, they are different things.

yes .. the first is modern astrology crapperoo and the second ( changing it to THAT decan of Aquarius annoted by the sign for Venus) CAN show the energy of the card by looking at the influence of those stars in that part of (decan) Aquarius ... which again is another concept ( craperoo a la ravenest) ... and other pips ... sometimes .

I wrote an analysis its around here somewhere ???
 

ravenest

LRichard said:
1. Did you really expect an internet astrology site to be in agreement with Crowley's interpretation of Venus in Aquarius?

I would like to call upon a real astrologer here. I beg Ravenest to be objective.

.

Don't beg ... its undignified ... besides we are in the Thoth forum and I am a Thelemite.

However I can assure you ... that when the 'real astrologer' you called upon does show up s/he will agree with me (objectively) that no one seriously really expects an internet astrology site to be in agreement with Crowley's interpretation of Venus in Aquarius.
 

ravenest

If you just want to 'play with the tarot cards', why then have you been asking technical, theoretical questions? A lot of knowledgeable people have spent time and effort trying to answer your questions, and now you say that you aren't currently interested in such things.

Maybe that Golden Dawn person (to whom you keep referring) got exasperated with your vicissitudes and fed you a bunch of nonsense in order to distract you while he made his escape.

LOL so much I cant get my breath or type propery ... PROPERLY!
 

ravenest

My technical questions refer to the practical tarot divination.

Again I say: don't shoot the pianist. It is your country fellowwoman. Forget wishful thinking, I am for 200% sure. And don't lie in ambush for me. You are making yourself suspect.

Dude! If LRichard WAS lying in ambush for you ... you'd be mincemeat!

And ummm ... have a guess WHO is making WHO appear 'suspect' ...

It's you! .... Don't believe me ?

Should I post a poll 'Who is making themselves suspect LRichard or Yogiman?'

So ... here we go again ... you do something ... you don't like it ... so you blame ummm ... let's see ... LRichard

try checking this out, it might help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

In case I said something improper, I beg the secret chiefs or those bogey adepts of that dark criminal GD order to sent me a curse, so that I get an acute arthritis in my fingers, CHRONIC.

Till tomorrow.

oOOOOO ! Now you've done it haven't you.

Amd now you cant edit THAT out because I quoted you })

{This guy !!! Not only is he pissed off with the GD (for reasons he cant or wont cough up or cat communicate clearly) he is dancing around outside their Grand Lodge ;shaping up' yelling "Come on ! Take a swing at me ya bastards ... lets see what ya got! "

This is f ***en hilarious ... is anyone watching this! :laugh: }
 

Satyatarot

{This guy !!! Not only is he pissed off with the GD (for reasons he cant or wont cough up or cat communicate clearly) he is dancing around outside their Grand Lodge ;shaping up' yelling "Come on ! Take a swing at me ya bastards ... lets see what ya got! "

This is f ***en hilarious ... is anyone watching this! :laugh: }

I've been laughing since it started really... Yogiman: this seems to almost entirely be a case of disillusionment steeped in egotistical ranting and raving. It's quite similar to a child going to school (Extremely excited to be doing ANYTHING other than what they're doing now), realizing it's not what they first thought it was, and the child then throwing a tantrum. You're using a larger vocabulary, and seem to consider yourself to be reasonably rebelling, but this really seems to be the same concept.
 

firecatpickles

Crowley states: They are quite above, and distinct from, the other small cards in the same way as Kether is said to be symbolized only by the topmost point of the Yod of Tetragrammaton.

I don't see very well how this translates to the given divinatory meanings of the Ace of Cups and the Ace of Disks.

Ace of Cups
meaning: productivity, conception, beauty, love, pleasure, happiness
[Ace of Disks]
meaning:material gain, power, labor, wealth, contentment.


Those meanings can all be found among the other pip cards, so how do we show the Spirit-value of the ace of disks in a divination?

The phrase, "quite above and distinct from" invites me to look at the Aces as more than the pips, sort of the way Majors are set into a different category.

"...symbolized only by the topmost point of the Yod of Tetragrammaton": reminds me that the "top" of the tertragammaton is the bottom of the Tree of Life, where downward movement shows growth from our spiritual center from above as well as the human growth cycle but looking at the world upside down. It is Ha-adama, the primordial man, or Purusa have to look at the tree the same way I do the the skyview in astronomy: laying on the ground looking upside down with my feet pointed at the north pole. It is the same concept with The Tree and the Tetragrammaton.
 

Grigori

Moderator Note

Hi all

Can we slide back to the topic of the thread please, rather than discussing the posters within the thread.

Many thanks!
Grigori
 

yogiman

Twenty years ago I had an entire bookshelf of GD related literature, which was discarded in anger after the Big Desillusion. One of the books was -the Jungian Tarot- by Robert Wang, the well reputed author of the -Qabalistic Tarot-, and creator of the GD deck together with Israel Regardie. He didn't do difficult about the astrological attributions to the pip cards: ones=kether=pluto, twos=chokhmah=uranus, threes=binah=neptune, etc. He gave new keywords to the cards, with the surprisive comment that the old traditional attributions were just arbitrary (or something alike). I hope readers here will be able to confirm this.

Thanks to RW Carter for the Wang quote:
It is clear today that some of the most commonly-accepted ideas about Tarot, especially those of late nineteenth century French and English occultists, were an arbitrary attempt to create a "secret tradition" where, as history demonstrates, none actually existed.

To me the most meaningful replies are from Ravenest and LRichard:

Oh ... I will have to put that on my list of Wang's wackies ( Wang's mistakes )

I know ... I know .... I should stop picking on Wang (especially when one of his blunders supported on of my 'crazy theories' ;) ) .

Robert Wang was my springboard into the western esoteric tradition. Few people will be as acknowledgeable about the golden dawn, as he is.

After creating the Golden Dawn Tarot, I understand that there was something of a falling out between Robert Wang and Israel Regardie over the artistic merit of Wang's deck. This may account for Wang's abandonment of that tarot system, for which he had done such a monumental amount of hard work, on the tarot deck as well as his authoritative book, Qabalistic Tarot.

Very likely you can subsitute artistic merit for share of the profit. Anyhow, it is weird and shows little sign of spiritual attainment and faith in the system.
 

ravenest

Ohhh … here we go then ... have you read my astro tarot post in GD forum?

If not, anyway, lets get wacky (and adopt Wang's wong view about Aces and Princesses and Poles - another wrong Wang, which I like as his mistake supports my musings ) ... this thread has gone wacky anyway;


The phrase, "quite above and distinct from" invites me to look at the Aces as more than the pips, sort of the way Majors are set into a different category,

Yes ; there is the Trumps (three types - elemental, planetary and astro ) , the courts ( two types - the Princesses and the others { astro } courts), 2 - 10 each suit (decans) and the Aces ( 'roots' )

"...symbolized only by the topmost point of the Yod of Tetragrammaton": reminds me that the "top" of the tertragammaton is the bottom of the Tree of Life, where downward movement shows growth from our spiritual center from above as well as the human growth cycle

Which already reminded me of : the 'bottom' of the Tree of Life placed in the Celestial Sphere ( as above so below ) and also on the Terrestrial Sphere, the downward movement is through the 'middle pillar / axis / but actually MAGNETIC axis ( the planet's 'spiritual centre' ) flows OUT at the SMP (south magnetic pole) from 'above' ( in through the NMP ) ... the planetray growth cycle.


but looking at the world upside down.

No, there is no upside down world as it is a sphere, no upside down for a sphere in space ... what's the reference point ? ('You guys' 'up there' did that by drawing maps with N at top ... many old maps have S or E at the top ... this is modern hemispheristism :) )

It is Ha-adama, the primordial man, or Purusa have to look at the tree the same way

Not 'down here' one doesn't. ;)


I do the the skyview in astronomy: laying on the ground looking upside down with my feet pointed at the north pole.

Not down here it isn't :) That's the way we look at the sky / ecliptic ... YOU now 'rightside up' :)


It is the same concept with The Tree and the Tetragrammaton.

Yep.

The problem was ; IMO Tree of Life in the Celestial Sphere puts Princesses around the North Pole ... and the Aces too in some vague 'sits on the throne in space above the pole' idea

Whereas if the Princesses sit around the NMP THROUGH the, and via the, axis of Earth on the Thrones of the SMP (Aces and roots of elemental magnetic field) then everything ties in together with the Earth's 'planetary growth cycle' ...looping through itself and the cosmos (where the decans and signs 'reside') in a feed back loop through the NCP(celestial) and SCP .... with the courts around the globe representing the human types 'reflected' from the celestial signs, all forming giant intersecting cycles or 'wheels' rotating inside each other regulating energy and generating combinations of it.

Which might help to explain that strange quote at the end of the GD paper ( a source for the info on Aces and Princesses function in the intro of Book of Thoth) on 'The Tree of Life on the Celestial Sphere.' and make it a bit clearer ;

" 4: And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5: Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6: And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.


9: Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

10: As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11: Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12: And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13: As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14: And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15: Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16: The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17: When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

18: As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19: And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20: Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. “
{ Ezekiel. - The King James Bible }

P. S. ‘ Wang’s wong’; “‘The Qabalistic Tarot’ by Robert Wang. ( He is describing the G.D. astro diagrams with the cards laid out on them. The diagram is a view from ‘above’ or a plan view. On page 50 Wang is clarifying the point that the diagram is a 2-D representation of a 3-D spherical model.) “ … this scheme is a simplistic attempt to show relationships which are actually three dimensional, and refer to the Earth and its two Magnetic Poles.” (‘Qabalistic Tarot’ by Robert Wang. P.50.)

BUT the source document says;

“It (their placement map and system) represents the Heavens polarized on the plane of the Ecliptic, not on the plane of the Equator of the Earth, so that its North Pole is the veritable North Pole of our Heavens and not merely that part of them to which the North Pole of our Earth now points.” Note by S.R.M.D. ‘The Tree of Life Projected in a Solid Sphere’ – G.D. Paper, supplement to Liber – T. First paragraph. – Their emphasis.]