BE GONE, WHITE BORDERS! DECK PUBLISHERS...ARE YOU LISTENING?

Dee Ell

Yes melia and shadowdancer -- the point about trimming (which I would assume is a large reason why they choose to do it this way) is another "lazy" issue for me: if someone is designing a tarot deck (again, not just adapting random pieces of art to a tarot deck as so many are these days) then the art should take the trimming into account.

It's the same with any basic graphic design -- think about magazine layouts and ads: do they always have some kind of border? No, it's called "bleed" where the image/coloration extends beyond the trim zone and the "safe zone" (where text can be placed) while still maintaining any important parts of the image (people's faces, hands, etc) inside the ad, regardless of any trimming deviations. It's not an issue there, because they're designed from the outset that way.

If more people would design decks this way (with real forethought) rather than just either painting them and then later trying to fit/unify them onto a tarot card layout with borders and writing, etc or worse - picking paintings that had nothing to do with tarot but could be "bent" somehow in the LWB to take on tarot meanings but definitely don't have the same proportions as other images in the deck - then there wouldn't be such a great need for meaningless borders. Especially white ones.
 

thoughtprism

Second the guard rails statement. :thumbsup:

Borders still seem like corner cutting to me, and that's not something I consider a sign of a good business. If they really need a full 1/8" wiggle room on each side to allow for error, perhaps they shouldn't be in the business of mass producing a product where details actually matter. Save it for the cereal boxes.
 

shadowdancer

Yes melia and shadowdancer -- the point about trimming (which I would assume is a large reason why they choose to do it this way) is another "lazy" issue for me: if someone is designing a tarot deck (again, not just adapting random pieces of art to a tarot deck as so many are these days) then the art should take the trimming into account.

It's the same with any basic graphic design -- think about magazine layouts and ads: do they always have some kind of border? No, it's called "bleed" where the image/coloration extends beyond the trim zone and the "safe zone" (where text can be placed) while still maintaining any important parts of the image (people's faces, hands, etc) inside the ad, regardless of any trimming deviations. It's not an issue there, because they're designed from the outset that way.

If more people would design decks this way (with real forethought) rather than just either painting them and then later trying to fit/unify them onto a tarot card layout with borders and writing, etc or worse - picking paintings that had nothing to do with tarot but could be "bent" somehow in the LWB to take on tarot meanings but definitely don't have the same proportions as other images in the deck - then there wouldn't be such a great need for meaningless borders. Especially white ones.

Exactly :D :D But it is something perhaps learned the hard way. I never truly understood it properly until I had some printing done of my own. And would definitely take this into account if I was able to create artwork for my own deck. A real learning curve I went through.
 

Dee Ell

Exactly :D :D But it is something perhaps learned the hard way. I never truly understood it properly until I had some printing done of my own. And would definitely take this into account if I was able to create artwork for my own deck. A real learning curve I went through.

Yes. In addition to being a fine artist, I am also a freelance graphic designer, so I can see the different ways something like this would be approached (which is also why I consider it laziness - because with a project as large as producing 78 pieces of artwork for a deck, some serious forethought should be put in to ensure the best possible product as the end result!)

The irony is, most of these companies producing decks with white borders aren't tiny once-in-a-blue-moon publishers: they're putting out decks on an astoundingly regular basis. For many years. So they know exactly what's up with trimming allowances, bleed, safe zones, etc... which is also why I consider those "guard rail" white borders *extra* lazy ;)
 

greatdane

I TRULY UNDERSTAND all the comments

I can't argue with the TECHNICAL reasons publishers may use the white borders, but....my first post, last sentence states can anyone think of a deck that is helped....AESTHETICALLY...by the white borders?

I have always gotten technically why some may do it, but reading Dee Ell's posts, as obviously Dee Ell understands the process better than I, I still say.....

BE GONE, WHITE BORDERS!
I'll take my chances with wear and tear, but instead of white borders, publishers, do what you need to do to make a deck (and I am NOT saying no decks should ever have borders, I'm TALKING directly about the white superfluous borders that generally add nothing aesthetically) that is printed well and on good stock that can last without the guard rails.

And what's really fun is when they're almost impossible to trim on one's own IF part of the cards bleeds into the white. But even more than aesthetically, as we're talking about TECHNICAL reasons to have them, here's a TECHNICAL reason to NOT have them. Those of us who have relatively small or even medium-size hands trying to shuffle a large deck made larger by the white borders.
 

shadowdancer

I hear ya, GD - I really do :D

I am someone who reaches readily for the scissors and corner rounder. And no, off hand cannot think of a deck that has benefited or looks better for having a white border. Yet at the same time, if it is small enough, and the card image is large enough not to be swallowed I have a few that look... well... 'okay' with a border.

Is it specifically the white border that bothers you? Are you okay with coloured borders as long as they are not huge and swallow the image?
 

DavidMcCann

A picture has a frame, a card has a border. That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

A quick check shows about 50 borderless packs, of which I'd only give house-room to two, so luckily I'm not missing much!
 

greatdane

HI SHADOWDANCER!

OK, here are my issues. I can handle the thin borders on like the Lenormand Oracle by di Roberto. I think it would look BETTER without them and would be nicer to stain the edges without the white border, but it's ok because it's small and I can still shuffle. Not a big deal. BUT decks like the BIERI LENORMAND. I think it looks cheesy with the white borders. It's got a black background with a thin brown border and then this BRIGHT white border. I think Ladybird has a youtube which shows she trimmed her Bieri and then colored the edges. It looks amazing. These WHITE white borders just do NOTHING aesthetically for me. And the Bieri is a fairly good size. I can still shuffle comfortably with the white border, but it's like WHY have them?

The Tarot for Cats is a cute and whimsical deck I won't use a lot, but will come in handy some times and I really like the images, I think they're clever. But with cards are like small oven mitts in size and to that, they add....a thin white border. At least if the border were gone it would be a little easier to shuffle.

I have some decks I don't mind the borders and think they may even add to the deck. The Berenika Lilac Lenormand that came with the combo looks fine with the borders, I don't find them distracting, more like a frame.

This thread is really about the WHITE borders that serve as like training wheels or guard rails. They make a deck look...institutional.

Although I don't have this deck any longer, and even though not WHITE borders, I thought the borders on the Mystic Dreamer were heinous. There was so much detail in the cards and it was lost even more by these ugly big borders.
 

greatdane

So DavidMcCann

You think white borders enhance the look of a deck?
 

Babalon Jones

I do like borderless decks, if it means larger images for my long sighted vision to feast upon.

However..

Having had cards printed I FULLY understand why white borders are favoured and are the norm. To allow for a bleed area, and to allow for a slightly off centred cut (even a single figure pixel difference) borders can help prevent key areas of the image from being cut away. Borders protect ALL of the image, but do make the image smaller. And as for coloured borders, they look great. but when the card starts to chip or become worn, they show the damage a lot quicker. Years ago, a well worn card was just a sign of something that had been used and had character. I rarely see anyone who uses one deck for 20 years + where this happens, so any wear is often seen as an irritant. How often have we seen postings here, where owners of decks with black borders are bemoaning the issue of wear showing?? Quite often.

If I were to design my own deck (I wish, but there lies a story) I have learned to have ALL key aspects inside the card, with the outer edges being part of the story but not prevalent parts of the image. Thereby I would opt for borderless printing, and would be happy in the knowledge the key image was safe during the printing and cutting process.

But I do understand why in recent years, white borders have been popular with publishers. Less ink used, and less chance of there being a blemish on the border. Also safe in the knowledge the image is entirely protected. And wear will not show.

The print site I use advise 36 pixel for bleed, and another 36 pixel for safety. Therefore, if the blade is off by 36 pixels, (which is unlikely) the whole image is still guarenteed.

So I guess I am seeing both sides of the debate...lol but would opt for borderless at the outset. Especially if I were self publishing, and knew which site I would be using for the printing. Knowing the ratio and dimensions of the upload would mean knowing what to to use for the artwork, from day 1.

Hey, this is basically some of what I was going to say. The bleed area I had to work with was 3mm all round. So horizontally or vertically, 6 mm could be lost top or bottom or from either side worst case scenario (though the full loss all on one side is unlikely). Someone else said not accounting for that is just being lazy. I don't think it is that simple. Not only do you have to make sure that critical parts are not trimmed, but that the symmetry of the image is not compromised as some cards are very centrally oriented, being a meditative type image.

That said, I account for bleed in my tarot art but still am unlikely to do a borderless deck, because I don't want wear on the image edges. The wear would not bother me for a deck for my own personal use, and it is not that I do not want to see wear on my art. Having printed a deck with black borders, I now know there are three types of people: those who will be bothered by tiny spots of wear showing on the edge of a black deck and will email and complain about it in a shocking and disturbing way, those who won't be bothered by it or would not dream of emailing about it, and those who know how to use a Sharpie to fix it in less than a few seconds :) With a borderless image there may not be a simple fix like that, and I can imagine that having the art itself show any wear would bother more people. I see some people read with well worn, obviously long-term-loved decks, but some are really disturbed by any sign of wear yet also hate the plasticky card stock designed not to show wear. Hard to make any decision knowing you can't please all of the people, all the time.

I doubt it is that white is cheaper as the paper is white (though maybe who knows if one was printing thousands of them) but more likely that white shows no cutting flaws on the edge of the paper, and no wear.

I also want to address the comment that wear on a deck is due to a faulty printing process. i don't believe that is so, all decks wear they just do so in different ways depending on the manner of printing and type of card stock etc. I am by no means an expert, but it was explained to me by someone who is or as I interpret what they said, that with offset printing, the ink sinks into the paper while with digital printing the ink is baked onto the surface like enamel. So with offset you get less immediate edge wear and fewer (but still some) marks from slight cutting flaws on the edge though the cards still wear with use, but very slightly less vibrant color than digital due absorption and definitely less color consistency pack to pack. An artist also likely is doing smaller runs, and offset is not cost effective unless printing thousands, not hundred, of cards. If printing thousands it is cheaper than digital, if printing hundreds it is more expensive. So it is only usually chosen by mass producers. Plus even if you did want to use offset for a smaller run, the printers won't set up the press to run you a physical proof, you have to get a pdf proof and what the hell good is that, as it is basically what you already sent them and tells you nothing about what the finished product will be like. Yes some deck designers getting picked up by a publisher get to approve proofs for a mass produced offset run, but that is because the printers are committed to setting up the press already for a big job.With digital you get a proof even for a small job, you get consistent and vibrant color, and cost effectiveness for smaller jobs. But since the color lays on top of the paper, it can show wear on the edge easier. And the card stock probably matters too, the plasticky laminates peel, and the aqueous coatings on offset printings can be faulty, while digital printings are not aqueous coated.

Probably more than you wanted to know, lol.

Now as far as your other question as to whether I ever saw a deck enhanced by white borders, well not any I have purchased unless you count black and white decks :) i do like borders in general but only if they are very thin on the sides and unobtrusive overall unless they have a design that just really goes with the art.
But the deck I am currently working on, oddly enough, I like the way the images look when I print them on super white paper, white borders and all. I think the vibrant India inks I am using really glow against the white. And I am used to seeing art, like watercolors with a white border masked off and it does not bother me. I thought about doing a thin white border because I actually do think they look good that way, but probably won't since there seems to be a default hatred of white due to so many doing it poorly or only for economic or convenience reasons. Maybe a nice parchment or cream instead, lol, but that is a whole different look. My last deck had black, I want to do something else this time...