camoin style reading, frelkins #2

[frelkins]

So luck would have it, I was walking by my local metaphysical bookstore as I went from my hair appointment to the subway. It began at that moment to drizzle; I entered to wait out the rain.

I walked down the aisle, turned left randomly and what did I literally bump into but a rack -- a rack that held ONE deck of the Noblet!

Bingo. I mean, fate doesn't get any clearer than that. So I ran home and tried a test Camoin on what I needed to know about my situation with RSW. All the cards came out upright:

Force | Emperor | Star

And I've attached the pic below.

This allows me to focus on the mechanics of the regards and laws. There doesn't seem to be any gaze issues here; the 3 cards seem complete.

But Force appears to be staring at the Emperor's eagle, while the Emperor appears focused on the biggest star past the orb of his scepter. In return, the blonde in star appears to be staring at the Emperor's dark blue shoe. Dark blue I believe stands for the unconscious?

The eagle is a symbol of thought for Camoin, right? And the light blue water from Star appears to flow back into the Emperor, by his throne. The light blue stands for consciousness for Camoin, correct? There's a lot of yellow in Force and Emperor, which doesn't flow over as much into Star -- instead it rises into the sky in the form of the big star. Yellow is courage, yes?

So much for the colors. For the law of two, Force and Emperor both have hats. The big star is pointy; the Emperor's cross on his orb has some points. That seems about all for the laws, until we get to the law of the extremities, where we would pair Force and Star together.

Normally i would say that Force perhaps stands for me and the Emperor for RSW, because Camoin says all the clothed figures can represent people (law of resemblence), whereas the naked ones are higher concepts. Would this be right, or could you also understand Star as a person?

And of course the law of inversion I guess would be that Force and Emperor are clothed, while Star is nude.

Any other laws or symbols I've missed? Thanks!

 

[Phine]

Hi frelkins


don´t take this trial too serious - I´m a beginner in this method... But I will take courage , hoping to communicate my thoughts in an understandable way...

Apart from alle laws my first thought was "liberation / upgrading / expansion" - I will keep that in mind, let´s have a look, if it works...


I´ll start with the Law Of Regards as you did - without noting the colours:

The "Lady FORCE" gazes at the eagle or the feet of L´EMPEREUR as the "Lady Star" does as well... Both women seem to be interested where the emperor will go to or if he will start moving at all (I think they gaze at his blue foot he is standing on). Even the eagle might have a look at his feet.
The lion looks at the head of L´EMPEREUR who prolongates the view to the big star in the future position. BTW: All figures of the past and present turn their fronts to the future... (woman, lion, eagle, man) which gives them an expectant attitude. L´ETOILLE is the only person looking "back" and she is the only nude person.


So I´ll try to apply it on your question: What do you need to know about ypur situation with the RWS?

In the past LA FORCE suggests to me that you got the ability to handle the RWS without strain. The lady knows how to treat the lion. But she doesn´t look at this animal (she knows it well - there seems to be no need to keep an eye on it) - instead she gazes at the eagle of L´EMPEREUR. She could have something different in mind... The eagle suggests thoughts - other thoughts than the RWS offers to you?
While in present time L´EMPEREUR could symbolize a sort of feeling being fixed to the card meanings of the RWS as L´EMPEREUR gives rules and stability. And of course the knowledge of the RWS could give a solid "footing". L´EMPEREUR seems to look relaxed into the future (his posture makes me think this), but there might be caution as well - his scepter looks a bit like a signaling disk and he seems to kick new thoughts out of sight (eagle on the shield). Or he is pensive, awaiting things to come...
In the future position L´ETOILLE turns towards L´EMPEREUR and spills water that seem to swap into the emperors card - not yet wetting his feet... but by time it perhaps will. I think it was her who gave the idea of liberation, she has no need to wear a siut of armour or any other confining clothing, she is guided / shielded by her leading star... (Maybe she wants the emperor to undress and take a bath with her - sorry, I´m kidding, but that´s what came to my mind.).


I noticed that the ladies are active / doing something (XI is opening the lions mouth, XVII is spilling water) wheras the emperor is "inactive". Don´t know if it is according to the Law Of Repetition? (Perhaps it means only repeated symbols?).
And there are two female figures looking downwards (one clothed, one naked which accords to the Law Of Extremities and the Law Of The Exception as well I suppose) surrounding one male figure.



I´m afraid I mixed it all up - and give it up at this point.


Curious how this will go on,
Phine

 

[frelkins]

Thanks Phine, I don't think we are meant to interpret the readings here, only to rehearse the mechanics of the method - still I appreciate your insight.

Yes La Force is looking towards the Emperor in the future, he is not looking back at her; Force appears fixed on the eagle of the Emperor's thoughts and not on her own creature, the lion. I am unsure what lions as a symbol means for Camoin. . .but this method is supposed to allow us to rely on our own intuition, so the reader can use what works for them. . .

The Emperor likewise looks up at the Star itself, not back at Force or at the Star's nude. He's maybe not interested in women now, so to speak, but a higher idea? Meanwhile the nude is herself gazing at the Emperor's "unconscious" foot, as the conscious knowledge she is pouring back into the universal stream comes towards that unconsciousness but doesn't quite touch it, as you note.

Since both are blonde, I wonder perhaps if Force and Star are the *same* woman, at one state clothed with her hair up in a net, and at the other, nude, with its connotations of a higher state? This would add interest to the Law of Extremities meaning.

Anyway, I think we have used all the symbols and laws here now!

 

[Paul]

I'll take a stab at it. Of course, in pure Camoinism, you are using the Noblet; so, I should say that a purist would say that only the Camoin deck can be used, yadda yadda yadda.

O.k. Here's the spread:

Your question was "what I needed to know about my situation with RSW".

La Force and L'Empereur are both symbols of power and control (Law of Repetition). The RWS is familiar to you, and perhaps due to all of the pictures and Golden Dawnifications, you feel a sense of mastery with this deck. In contrast to Lempereur-- who is so neat and tidy and foursquare-- the Tarot de Marseille is like Le Toille, a naked virgin in a wilderness, pretty, but raw and unknown. She is seductive, still (because she is upright). But, the RWS also are upright and tug at you.

The Law of Extremities shows us a thoroughly clothed woman looking towards the active right, thus subduing the lion to a naked woman looking towards the passive left, surrounded by nature. The Law of Duality shows "Subduing nature to yielding to nature". You are returning to the natural Tarot, the seminal Tarot, the Tarot of antiquity.

In both La Force and Lempereur (Law of Resemblance), the cards are dominated by the clothed personages, each person draped in his or her prescribed garb. But, in Le Toille, she is naked, natural, and without pretense. Thus, the TdM offers you a method of reading without the intellectual overlays of the RWS.

Frelkins-- if you are a female, then I feel that La Force-to-Le Toille is also you in your experience of deck systems that have been largely dominated by Men (Lempereur/Waite and Crowley) moving to the TdM which has a more feminine influence, at least culturally, due to the French influence, who are viewed in the Western world as effeminate.

There is one final possible interpretation that rings true in my heart-- that the RWS is the forcible overlay of an outside intellectual system on the Tarot (La Force), which truly works for many, and thus the card is upright. But, the TdM and Camoin method is the marriage of intellect and science (Lempereur) with the poetry of the language of the Tarot de Marseille (Le Toille). (Law of Extremity/Duality.)

Camoin boasts that his method marries science with art.

 

[frelkins]

Paul, that is a very interesting interp. However, maybe something wasn't clear...

The Golden-Dawn based deck is the R*W*S, the Rider Waite Smith. I've never been fond of Waite's downbeat deck, and I think he ripped off Pixie big time. Even Mary who has written books about GD type decks & such admits that the tradition of the GD is based on a fabrication (http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1465215&postcount=70). As for Crowley, he creeps me out - and of course I also think he abused the lovely Lady Frieda.

This is why I usually read with historical decks, like the Visconti, the Mantegna, the Minchiate, the Sola-Busca and the Gummpenberg. Thus TdM is of deep interest to me, and I love the Noblet and the Vieville. I would love to get a nice Vieville and I hope Flornoy does a full one.

And true, while I do not have a "real" Camoin deck, I find much in the Camoin approach that is ringing true for me. I particularly like his sample readings on his site, particularly the relationship reading, which honestly may be one of the best relationship readings I have ever seen.

I am naturally somewhat of a Francophile, have lived in France, and read and speak French quite well. This also increases my attraction to the TdM, as it's not hard for me to read the books people recommend here. Further, I have an MFA in literature, so the ideas of symbol, sign, metonymy, syndoche, etc, are all quite familiar to me and make sense for use in tarot.

So I'm definitely down with the whole vibe here more so than the GD, altho' I have tried various of its methods and just never been thrilled.

That said, my question concerned one R*S*W, a handsome, intellectual and artistic gentleman of my acquaintance for whom I have a tragic and unrequited affection. The comic similarity of these sets of initials had not come to my notice!

Still despite this charming misunderstanding of the subject, I am somewhat cheered by your conclusion that there may be a marriage of science and art! For I am indeed all blonde, and the best part about being a French-style feminist is that you get to still like men -- I mean, really really like them!

I should say I am also very interested in Jodo, Paul, and I suspect you and probably both read the NY Review of Books! Thanks again.

 

[Paul]

Well, that was embarassing.
I'll just act cool and pretend I meant that to happen.







It actually occurred to me that RSW was a person. But, I ran with others' RWS connections.

________________________________________


O.K. -- well, in that case, La Force is you, passionately looking at Lempereur, who's back is to you. Unrequited is aptly illustrated. He looks at Le Toille. Is there another woman? Or, do you look at Lempereur from another angle and role. Must you cast off any pretense you have had thus far and bare your soul?

If not two women per se, then this reading shows two polarities in yourself: One self-controlled, prudent, conservative; one free, passionate, natural. Which version shall the Emperor see?

O.k. was THAT better!



...Ahem, this was a lesson in how Context informs the meanings of the TdM iconography...yeah, that's it, a lesson...

 

[frelkins]

LOL Paul No problem. Now that I have most unfortunately seen that the Noblet does appear to understand my life -- of course there is another woman, Paul! or else it wouldn't be romantic and tragic! -- I should do my next throw on *why* this is happening to me and *how* I get the heck out of it into a healthier and more balanced situation.

Thanks again for your sweet help Paul!

 

[Moonbow]

Just thought I would point out that the Emperor in the Noblet faces to our right, (as Paul's image shows), and the Emperor in the Camoin, and most other decks, faces to our left. I guess Camoin's method can be used with any deck, but I just wanted to make this clear for the reader of this thread.

I haven't tried this method of reading yet but looking at the Camoin for these three cards there are some interesting gazes between Lion, La Force and L'Empereur. Le Toille looks definitely 'out of it' as far as gazes go.

 

[Phine]

That´s amazing...
While reading / interpreting the spread I "saw" L´Empereur as the RWS deck in a sort of personalization :-o ("rigid" in it´s preset meanings in contrast to this way of reading the TdM - that´s why the thought of liberation came up). But I didn´t anticipate it could mean a real person because of the question!

Really fascinating....

 

[Paul]

Indeed. When working with Camoin Method, using the Majors only for the foundational spread, people are often simply illustrated by the prototypes on the Majors. When the context of the question is couplings, we always look for couples in the tableau. Their gazes, or upright/reversal states become telling.

If we were using the Camoin/Jodo deck here, of course I would imagine that different card relationships would have been used, because of the different orientations of the Jodo/Camoin with the Noblet.