Can we talk Pips?

[Moonbow]

I think it's very apt that they are called pips... a small hard seed, but once watered and nurtured it opens to form something beautiful.

Of course the mundane meaning is that it's also a spot on a card or domino which denotes it's numerical value. I prefer the seed myself.

Many people find the transition from illustrated minors, to what is commonly called pips a difficult one. "How do you start?" "How can you 'see' what the card means?" "How do you remember the meaning of the card?" "But they all look just the same whether they have 6 or 8 swords!!"

The way I read them is to look at some very basic numerology and also to link them to the Major of the same number at times, this is a system which suits me... at least as a way of getting into the card and once I'm there I see far more detail, which I pull from...... ummm.... me.

In a Marseilles deck we have far more then just the suit implement to look at and read, as the foliage and the pattern formed by the implements also speaks. The fruit, flowers, buds, seeds and leaves all indicate a meaning for the pip. A bud or seed for example reminds us of something new, just beginning, growing, about to bloom..... a seed can also be at the end of it's cycle.... it could mean a waiting or dormant stage. Whereas a flower in it's fully fledged bloom reminds us of summer, full maturity, full beauty.... and so the meaning changes. If you have a Marseilles deck, look at the patterns formed by the cups etc, the heart shapes in the foliage, does the card look light and flowing or regimented and directional? Does is move, or stand still? Does it ask a question, or answer one? Does it look exciting, calm, energetic, loving?

If you want to read Pips, I suggest learning a little about numerology and looking deeply at the card, this works for me, but there are other methods if you research and also search this forum. I recently found some threads on Pips which I've linked in the Table of Contents - About Reading thread.

Some threads:
Pips: the meaning of the numbers
Non-illustrated pips

So........ are the pips getting stuck in your teeth, or are they starting to sprout?

Moonbow*

 

[Rosanne]

yes lets talk Pips. I don't relate to the Numbers of Majors when considering the minors. I see the numbers like animated wands/batons or swords, or coins, or cups. They dance into patterns and show me their quality not their sum. The wands end up in the natural pattern of a square when it is four- so I think order and house and hearth etc(I can see why that would speak of the Emperor) When it comes to five, say in the cups, the center cup is taking from the square and is showing loss from the order of four; on the other hand, I have to venture out from the stability of four, so mentally I climb on the center cup and look over the four walls of the four = New Hope. I don't see numbers 123456789 I see shapes within their symbol and element. So I relate to Thoth pips quite well. I find it difficult to get the pips to do their number dance with some decks. The pips stay put. Like the pips on the Mystic Meg deck. Boring little pips. I like the Grimaud pips. I think my way of dealing with pips comes from the amount of exposure I had to animated cartoons as a child. My father had Cinemas around the country. So I am not so keen on Decks that have the numeral on them like the Gill for instance. Thanks for bringing the subject up. ~Rosanne

 

[Moonbow]

That is a great way to read pips Rosanne! I can see how you come to your method when I look at a Marseilles deck especially. To me they dance as well. I'm sure others will find this a useful way to be able to start reading pips, especially if they are intuitive readers. Perhaps then, reading with pips is freeing, in a way that pictures on cards aren't, (or perhaps just freeing in a different way).

Getting pip decks out and playing aound with them and using our imagination seems to be less constricting and also very individual in how we see the cards.

I find some other decks less inspiring though. The Grand Etteilla is more of a fortune telling deck and although I'm quite used to a fortune telling deck (Lenormand), the pips in the Etteilla are quite flat to me. Here's the 9 of coins:

Grand Etteilla 9 of Coins

I suppose this is the type of deck where I would think of the number 9 and the connotations it has for me personally, and then think of what the suit fo coins would mean. So in this example I think of 9's as being endings, progression and outcome or end of a sequence. Then I would relate that to what the suit of coins means to me. Then jumble it all up and mix in the surounding cards and voila. It's a bit of a contrived way of reading the pips though and I much prefer a more flexible way to read.

 

[Little Baron]

I am 'one-deck-wonder-ing' at the moment with 56 scenic minors, so I won't indulge here for too long

But, the beauty in pips is too often undervalued. I often think that people don't actually 'look' at them.

Take the Hadar Marseille 'Ace of Coins', for example. Can you tell me that that card is boring? That it is not beautiful! The sturdy cups in the '3 de Coupe' - the way that two send foliage and shoots out to nurture the third. Is that not the growth and care mimicked from the Empress card?

Like any deck, they need a bit of time.

Now, in recent years, I have learnt playing card systems. And in particular, the one used by Deborah Leigh - Personal Prophecy. I transferred what I knew about the playing cards onto the minor cards of the Marseille, almost programming their meanings from my brain to the cards, and from the cards to my brain, until I could really FEEL them. So when read in trios, they became a sentence, rather than just disjointed words. This is a different approach to many, but the beauty in pips is that they can hold ANY approach. I can hear you saying 'but how do you know that you are right?'. Well, firstly, you don't. But secondly [and this is where it gets fun], you just do!!!
And remember, who said that Waite was right? Who said that Crowley was? These decks that so many people use and consider to be 'right' are just the thoughts and feelings of 'other people' in picture form. Those thoughts and feelings are no more significant than your own. The Marseille and decks with pips offer you the blank canvas, luxury and oportunity to create YOUR OWN visions, rather than relying on somebody elses.

LB

 

[spoonbender]

I think it's very apt that they are called pips... a small hard seed, but once watered and nurtured it opens to form something beautiful.

Oh I like the name "pips" for just the same reason... except that I wouldn't be able to express it as beautifully as you did.

For me, the pips in the Tarot de Marseille usually work very well - especially those of my Dusserre Dodal. Now that I think about it, the cards that have stumped me most in the past, have always been Majors and NOT pips. I think I've almost always been able to relate them to my day. It's like: Batons usually show up when I've done something creative or passionate, Swords when I've been studying or attending classes, Deniers when something involved art and history or when I spent time with family, and Cups (which I draw least often) when I experienced intense emotions.

It's not just the suits that make sense though, but also what is conveyed by the suit symbols and the foliage. Like how the central Denier on the 5 of Deniers is closed in by the leaves and stems - when I last drew it, it conveyed that thin line between being safe and protected, and being trapped and suffocating. Or how the central baton on the 9 of Batons reminds me of the cork on a bottle, waiting to pop open. (Unfortunately I only found links to the Grimaud Tarot de Marseille - believe me, the Dodal is much more vibrant and colorful and alive!) It's for that exact reason that it always annoys me a little bit when people say the Marseilles' minors are "unillustrated".

There are also pips I wouldn't be able to work with though - those that, unlike the Tarot of Marseilles, are merely a repetition of a certain number of suit symbols. They seem kind of boring, and just don't "do" much for me...

Spoon

 

[Little Baron]

There are also pips I wouldn't be able to work with though - those that, unlike the Tarot of Marseilles, are merely a repetition of a certain number of suit symbols. They seem kind of boring, and just don't "do" much for me...

Spoon

Yes, Spoon.

Before I got to the quoted paragraph, I was about to say the exact same thing.

Tarot of the Witches, as an example. It is no wonder that when someone sees such vibtrant majors as that decks holds, that they become disheartened by the minors of a deck like that. Not even any interesting way of displaying them. Such a shame. If that deck had had some good minors, scenic or not, I think it could have been an odds on favourite.

No imagination in some decks. The Prediction deck is the same.

But there are some that use colour to liven things up. The Adrian has always been a favourite. In that one [minus the irrirating keywords], there is 'line' rather than foliage, that can be interpreted any which way you like.

I think that we need to sort out some good minors from decks [which are not Marseille]. The Marseille itself can often intimidate, but there is other decks out there that must have some nice pips which might seem more inviting - the Crystal, being one.

LB

 

[Moonbow]

I agree with you both about pips in some decks that just repeat the suit emblem, these are likely the decks that I tend to steer clear of using for client readings.

So are we saying that pips with some illustration of sorts are easier to read then those with no illustration?

... and what IS the best way to proceed when switching from Rider Waite (Coleman Smith) type decks to Marseilles ones. Should we continue to remember the picture on the WCS deck? Should we follow a new method? Or does that all seem like too much hard work? Why bother to learn somthing a little 'outside of the box' when there is something more readily available and quicker to get into?

... and something Spoonbender said really resonates with me:

Now that I think about it, the cards that have stumped me most in the past, have always been Majors and NOT pips...

Me too!

 

[Little Baron]

And me! I often can't get a grip on 'The Hierophant'. Or Justice? And what the heck does 'The World' really mean?

And to let off steam, I have to say 'Why oh why oh why bother to read a pip deck if you are going to use the RWS meanings?'. Why not just use the RWS. It seems like such a pointless [and limiting exercise]?

But anyhow, I carry on ...

I don't think that pips necessary need foliage or any kind of drama in them, but I think it is nice that they have a different arrangement from each other. The 'Tarot of the Witches' does not, and it made it very difficult for me to tell them apart when using them. The 'Bologna' is another one that may have the same problem, when you look at the Baton cards. Aside from not being able to tell them apart, it also makes them a little uninspiring, to be honest.
In the 'Enoil Gavat' [remember the 'pulling-out-hair' fun I had with that Moonbow?], at least Tavaglione moved his batons about a bit and made different shapes with them.

In many cases, it just feels as though the artist couldn't be bothered and wanted to get the deck to the printers as soon as possible. If arrangements or colour was considered more in design and more people put their enthusiasm into creating more exciting pip cards, I think that many more readers would consider using them.

Oh, I don't know what is the best way to switch. Using Personal Prophecy, I used variations of Leigh's meanings. For example, the '10 of Swords' represents travel or a journey. In the Hadar, a flower almost waves with a leaf [take a look]. It looks like it is saying goodbye. In that instance, it wasn't hard for me to programme my mind into remembering that meaning. In others, I looked at the image and found details that made sense to me. In the PP method, I always see the 'Ace of Batons' as a phone - the card for all kinds of communication. This may seem strange and limiting to some, but after a while of asigning your own meaning, you very quickly forget someone elses. And in this case, the Hadar is just one deck. I had looked at these cards so many times in study that the relation is specific to it and wouldn't mean anything when looking at other pip cards.

Tarot is a personal journey. Make it personal.
LB

 

[connegrl]

I"m throwing myself into reading pips. I really do like that feeling of not having a clue.

For those that want to try pips, but have RWS meaning really stuck in their head or just want a moodier pip, The Stone Tarot has vivid color and very moody pips that do bring up the RWS meanings.

I'm really liking the challenge of working with pips. I'm getting a chance to really find out what a number and suit mean to me. I always felt constricted when working with illustrated pips.

Jen

 

[Formicida]

Should we follow a new method? Or does that all seem like too much hard work? Why bother to learn somthing a little 'outside of the box' when there is something more readily available and quicker to get into?

But for me (and I don't think I'm alone), going outside of the box is what Tarot IS. It's about expanding your horizons, opening yourself up to new perspectives and new interpretations. Why use a powerful tool like this in a stagnant way? Why give in to complacency?

That said, I haven't made the leap to pips yet. But I'm planning to (thus why I'm following this thread). The question just resonated with me.