Card Divination Poll

[gregory]

I downloaded a text copy of The Complete Works of William Shakespeare from Project Gutenberg, here:

I will get to it in the end..... SO (an English MA) says one of the Henrys is the most likely (of course, there are so many ways of saying it without the words cards....!!) but that Webster is even MORE likely. Now he is gone to the South (!) to install wall panels, so I shall have to wait....

 

[Rosanne]

It is interesting Prudence......
for example in Sienna there is this Fresco now called Good and Bad Government painted by Ambrogio Lorenzetti in 1338-39. Over the years there has been some water damage and damp problems. There is one piece of 'intentional' damage to a part called 'effects in the town' in the detail of the Tavern. There are three men sitting around what might have been a table looking down at something. The something is removed. They did not play dice on a table like that- it could be cards- or palmistry. I doubt it is chess- but it could be. The guide of the Palace said he thought the damage may have been done in the time of the bonfires of the Vanities- so that would indicate it was card playing removed. Unfortunately you cannot make an educated guess it would seem- as the factual evidence is removed. Above this there is some water damage and it has removed a scene that Historians have decided was a Goldsmith's shop- though the next shop to it is a goldsmith. So an educated guess has been made. The problem is, that if it the table shows card playing then the dates for cards in Italy are much earlier than we have noted so far.
It also works the other way- no one can prove the card playing idea wrong either.
The Painting that Huck speaks about (and BrightEye) was painted when the artist was 12 years old- I find it hard to think that he had sufficient maturity to complete an allegorical scene and maybe he just painted what he saw- a woman getting handed a flower whilst she chose cards- with someone in the background handing a plate around. The woman does not have a hand of cards to indicate playing- and maybe the book of Fortune telling is not there because she has memorised meaning. So.........even if this does show a political picture - it does not show a card game either, even with all the symbolic bits and pieces.
~Rosanne

 

[Moonbow]

I can't see even a hint of evidence that the first decks were used for divination. However they were created with the idea of presenting a range of allegorical subjects that may have had some encyclopedic cosmology in mind.

Talking of hints....

If the Tarocco Bolognese was used since around the 15th century, and it appears has been used ever since, for gaming (and since around 1750 for divination), how feasible do we all consider it to be that the deck was used for divination prior to that date?

I'm playing around with the Bolognese cards today and reread the Tarotpedia page on the Bolognese pattern. The first point of actual evidence seems to be a manuscript which was discovered and published by Franco Pratesi before 1750. Since the Bolognese method was spread by oral tradition I find it likely that the divinatory meanings were also oral.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Bolognese_Tarot_Divination

And thanks to Ross for his translation of these divinatory meanings

 

[Teheuti]

Here's a margarite daisy

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2717264780_469104f0cf.jpg

that could be similar to the flower in the picture.

 

[Nevada]

of course, there are so many ways of saying it without the words cards....!!

Oh, I agree.

 

[gregory]

That's why it will take me a while to find it - but SO agrees that there is - he thinks - a reference in there somewhere. Not that it matters in the ultimate scheme of things, as others have found even earlier ones !

 

[Teheuti]

Kwaw has posted several selections from old books that recount tales of divination with cards. The most recent is from 1727.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1721404&posted=1#post1721404

 

[Jadex]

Someone's bound to have gotten curious if cards could be used for fortune telling.

 

[Teheuti]

I think I may have worked out an explanation for Lucas von Leyden's "The Fortune Teller" that we discussed earlier in this thread (around #41).

With the help of Alexandra Nagel, who has written several articles for The Playing Card society journal, some new possibilities have come to light (although I don't think she fully agrees with my conclusions).

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/lucas-van-leydens-the-fortune-teller”/

 

[light2000]

I belive it, even if there aren't any prove.

Humans always had the need to predict, so some used tea leaves, other coffee, other animal bones, others shells, clouds and so on....

So reading cards... yep