Deck criticism - how do we feel about it? split from: Most Under-rated Decks?

[gregory]

At what point does a genuinely held opinion about a deck, backed up by reasons, become offensive? Could I say I disliked the artwork? and say why or might the reason be hurtful if it should be that I genuinely felt the artwork not quite up to the mark?

If I dislike a deck, for reasons that feel valid to me, and think my fellow member XYZ (who has a very similar taste in decks to me) would hate it too, and XYZ then posts asking me to state my opinion of the deck so that they can possibly avoid wasting their hard-earned - do I refrain, even though this is a public forum, and I have been asked for my opinion?

I quite understand not wanting gratuitously negative comments to be posted; this must be hurtful. But if a negative comment is backed up with a specific reason "I find the deck appallingly garish, because it is all done with fluorescent primary colours" - is that still a hurtful comment, given that it is a subjective opinion and a reason for it is stated? I'm not trying to pick holes, truly - I just really want to know at what point (for you) criticism becomes negativity, because I believe one should be allowed to be critical but negativity is damaging and pointless. But my critical may well be your extreme negativity, and I can't gauge it without knowing at what stage it tips over the edge from one to the other from your point of view.

Indeed. I do NOT like threads called "what a horrible deck" (one deck I actually appreciate earned a thread by that title.) But there are times here were saying you don't like xyz about a deck by a popular creator here will bring down a stream of abuse, and also - it seems - hurt the creator's feelings. I have occasionally said I didn't like something about a deck in progress, and got PM from the creator who was hurt. Strangely, since I took to saying the same things BY PM - creators seem OK with the comments that way, and will happily engage with me. Maybe it is to do with saying these things IN PUBLIC. I know when I got my school reports, I would not have wanted to see them read out in assembly

Maybe it is simply that saying something critical - even constructively so - in public means that others jump on the bandwagon (well, so and so said it, so it must have something going for it) and then things do get nasty ?

 

[moderndayruth]

At what point does a genuinely held opinion about a deck, backed up by reasons, become offensive?

For me that point is when i feel judged and intimidated for my tastes - when in between the lines it says ' you are a brainless sheep because you like Faeries and not some Thoth clone' - at that point to me it becomes offensive.

 

[cirom]

I am looking for personal clarification here

Are you suggesting that "Saying that you believe a deck may have been produced to take advantage of the current popularity of a theme, i.e. a Harry Potter deck, and then go on to say that its success may be in grand part be only because of that connection, and in turn predict that interest in the deck may wane quicker as a result, is probably very often the case" is unfair on the creator of such a deck? Or is it that you think expressing an opinion that "it is shallow and appeal only to the sheep like members of the community" is the sort of hurtful negativity that should be avoided?

I'm saying that a comment connecting a deck with a popular theme or fad, and suggesting the subsequent popularity of that deck is clearly connected, and the reverse, namely the the popularity of the deck may be limited in time due to that same connection--- is perfectly acceptable.
I don't see that as being unfair to the deck creator. But then expressing a opinion that the deck has little merit beyond that, and that even its temporary popularity is due to sheep mentality of those who fell for the marketing ploy, can be unfair both to the decks creator..... and to the sheep.

At what point does a genuinely held opinion about a deck, backed up by reasons, become offensive? Could I say I disliked the artwork? and say why or might the reason be hurtful if it should be that I genuinely felt the artwork not quite up to the mark?

If I genuinely dislike a deck, for reasons that feel valid to me, and think my fellow member XYZ (who has a very similar taste in decks to me) would hate it too, and XYZ then posys asking me to state my opinion of the deck so that they can possibly avoid wasting their hard-earned - do I refrain, even though this is a public forum, and I have been asked for my opinion?

I quite understand not wanting gratuitously negative comments not to be posted; this must be hurtful. But if a negative comment is backed up with a specific reason "I find the deck appallingly garish, because it is all done with fluorescent primary colours" - is that still a hurtful comment, given that it is a subjective opinion and a reason for it is stated.

I'm not trying to pick holes, truly - I just really want to know at what point (for you) criticism becomes negativity, because I believe one should be allowed to be critical. But my critical may well be your extreme negativity, and I can't gauge it without knowing at what stage it tips over the edge from one to the other from your point of view.

I think you're putting me on a spot here rather really wanting to know. But I guess I asked for it. I could answer you better by actually quoting actual posts, that I consider well beyond the mark and there are several. But it would take some time which I really don't want to bother with, I trust that isn't interpreted as being a cop out. But of course as you're alluding to, the the line between what is acceptable and unnecessary is not only grey, its also changes position . But when in doubt would it really be such a sacrifice to show some restraint? If you felt so strongly about the appalling colors of your example, and felt duty bound to advise your friend to save her from a similar fate, but that you felt your comments could be hurtful to other, there are other less public option for you to advise and share you thoughts.

I mean come on lets get real here, I'm not proposing some kind of all encompassing censorship, jus a bit of common decency. I repeat I don't know where to draw the line here really I don't. But I pretty sure when its been crossed, and it has been crossed a lot here on AT.

I can't provide you with the exact clarification you asked me for, but is that really necessary. If you were in a art gallery reception, and you felt the colors, quality so appalling, you might simply walk out, or share your thoughts with a companion that is close by, but would you walk up to the artist and tell him her to their face, or grab a mike and announce it to the whole crowded room. I may be wrong but I don't think you would. So why would you here on these forums? Is that really so difficult to understand. There are certain norms of social behavior that we for the most part follow. But those norms don't seem to apply when you can say what you want without consequence.

I can't judge your honest criticisms verses my perceived negativity argument for each and every member. Nor can I impose rules for Aeclectic, but if everyone genuinely acted and commented here as they would in the real world, I think we would have a scenario where people could agree and disagree, and avoid the nasty stuff. I can't see what people have such an issue with that and see it as some encroachment on their rights to have an opinion and voice. As with my previous analogy of the art gallery and Gregory's previous post. The public nature or any comments is very much part of the equation.

 

[faunabay]

This thread has really gone off topic and shows me why some of the deck creators are no longer posting on AT. This has turned into a conversation about deck negativity when the original thread was about which decks you thought deserved MORE interest!!!! So I'm off to greener pastures until we can get back on track!

 

[Greg Stanton]

I'm saying that a comment connecting a deck with a popular theme or fad, and suggesting the subsequent popularity of that deck is clearly connected, and the reverse, namely the the popularity of the deck may be limited in time due to that same connection--- is perfectly acceptable.
I don't see that as being unfair to the deck creator. But then expressing a opinion that the deck has little merit beyond that, and that even its temporary popularity is due to sheep mentality of those who fell for the marketing ploy, can be unfair both to the decks creator..... and to the sheep.

For me as a reader, something like a vampire tarot has little, if any, real application. That's not to say that others might not appreciate this sort of thing, or that any Vampire tarot isn't well-made or attractive. But I believe it's fair to say that in the grand scheme of tarot, Vampire and other theme decks are and will be less influential and important than other more serious endeavors.

I think that Robert Place has made some absolutely stunning tarots — the Alchemical in particular. (Yes, it's a theme deck, but it's theme is more in line with esoteric and occult subjects than, say, gummi bears or vampires). His own vampire tarot is clever and engaging. When I saw he had devoted so much time a thought to it, I immediately thought "WTF?" However, buisness-wise, this was a shrewd move. He didn't produce schlock with this deck — it's smart and up to his usual high standards. And it will sell lots of copies, so good for him.

It's no Alchemical though, and it's certainly more of a curiosity than a more general, serious tarot. I don't think it's wrong to point this out.

 

[Greg Stanton]

This thread has really gone off topic and shows me why some of the deck creators are no longer posting on AT.

Sorry, but if you make something, and CHARGE MONEY for it, it's fair game. I'm not saying that people being deliberately mean (as opposed to critical) is good, it's just a fact of life. I can't imagine any artist being so sensitive or deluded that he believes his work will and should be loved by everybody. So I rather doubt that people have left AT because they were offended by all the buttersquashing.

 

[ncharge]

But, I part of my interest in AT is hearing other people's opinions of the specific decks. I know I can look at the scans, but those are 6 cards out of 78 and I can't count how many times I bought a deck based on the scans and found that majority of the other 72 cards didn't live up to the promise of the 6 cards I saw. Realistically, if somebody thinks that a deck is garish in person or the deck as a whole is shallow, I would like to know that. I don't take it as gospel, of course. But, if three dozen people agree, and only 10 disagree, I would give that opinion more weight before I decide.

I do agree that we can be careful how we word our statements and avoid personal attacks. But, I really do think that deck creators have to develop thick skins just like any artist. They put their work out there. It will be criticized and and praised in turn. That is the nature of art.

And maybe I should peruse the forum for tarot decks in progress, because I really haven't seen much criticism stated as an attack.

 

[JennyNY39]

"Saying that you believe a deck may have been produced to take advantage of the current popularity of a theme, i.e. a Harry Potter deck, and then go on to say that its success may be in grand part be only because of that connection, and in turn predict that interest in the deck may wane quicker as a result, is probably very often the case. But somebody presumably still put a lot of effort into it and its association with a theme or passing fad does'nt make it automatically shallow and appeal only to the sheep like members of the community as is often suggested on these threads. I think those last kind of opinions don't need to be publicly voiced. I don't believe Aeclectic would lose its diversity of opinions were they to be avoided, but it might avoid many of its darker conflicts." (Ciro)

I have to agree with this wholeheartedly. Especially in regard to the Vampire decks everyone seems to be bashing and calling a fad. Well, Vampires have existed long before Buffy and Twilight! I have been a bit obsessed since I was 13 and found a dog eared copy of Interview With The Vampire in a used shop. So, while many might feel the decks are faddish, I've waited for a long time and while I don't love them all, will be using the ones I do often and long-term. Seeing as now I am 40 and my interest in vampires from early teens have not waned. It gets kind of strange when you are embarrassed to admit to liking something because the masses call it ridiculous...loudly.

 

[cirom]

Sorry, but if you make something, and CHARGE MONEY for it, it's fair game.

Greg I really feel that the "I payed my money I can say whatever" is a bit of a cheap shot. Its not about the right to criticize it's about how its done. "Fair game"? because they charged and you paid. Surely as a professional graphic designer you can appreciate the difference between a client paying you for a specific commission as apposed to say some of the items that you hand craft and may have offered for sale??

Why do people always respond to my arguments with the same rhetoric of "If I can praise this why can't I critique that"... its such a lame response because that scenario is not being proposed. But they don't respond to my analogy of would they say the same things to the artist directly or to a crowded room that the artist might also be present in, as they are willing to do anonymously behind an internet alias, (which you don't... kudos to you, at least in that we share something in common)

I can't imagine any artist being so sensitive or deluded that he believes his work will and should be loved by everybody.

Another tired and often repeated mantra, No of course they don't expect that. and I don't remember any ever claiming otherwise.

So I rather doubt that people have left AT because they were offended by all the buttersquashing.

Well I'm sorry to say Greg you are very wrong on that score, As you can see, for good or bad, I'm still hanging around, but I can assure you that several others no longer are. Unlike the artists of your beloved Marseilles, the living ones still have feelings. Is that a loss to Aeclectic? Actually I think it is. I think its a lost opportunity for people to interact directly with those responsible for the very products they may end up using.

Beyond that, believe it or not I really do agree with you on many of your opinions regarding the some of the lets say more gimmicky offering available today.

 

[Wendywu]

Why do people get concerned that a deck they like is criticised by others? If I like something, I like it. I don't give a toss if everyone else hates it and says so - that's their prerogative. I don't like it less because others dislike it.

I'm not angry when people call me a total moron (or sneer at me, rather pityingly) for being a lifetime Trekkie fan, ever since the very first episode of the Original Series. That's up to them. I'll still be that Trekkie - and I'll shout it loud and proud . And trust me, Trekkies catch some flak when they're died in the wool, fanzine reading, middle-aged addicts.

I just think the sneerers are missing out because they don't understand, and feel vaguely sorry for them.

Having said that, I would not dream of being rude or unpleasant about a deck. But if I really don't get on with one because of this or that, and someone asks me - I'll say so. I belong to a couple of ebook forums - we feel free to criticise books we have read, and likewise we praise the ones we've enjoyed. We are civil about it - you don't just think a book was terrible and revolting and post that . We say, politely, why we disliked it. We wouldn't say things like "wanted to scratch my own eyes out after I'd read it" about a book - that is rude and doesn't offer any insight to the author as to the readers' reasons for not liking the book. On neither of those other forums have any authors posted in protest at the criticism posted about their books, and yes, there are authors who are members and post.

And yes - if I met the creator of a deck I didn't like, and that deck was the subject of discussion, I would feel free to say that I didn't like it. I would not be horribly rude, because I'm not that way inclined, but if I was invited to give my opinion, I would.... and here on AT, people ask us our opinions....

Oh yeah - my name is Wendy Munro