jmd
Macavity, glad to see you found what you were after at villarevak. It has managed to remain a very useful and very good site over the years - albeit a little negative in tone at times.
Minderwiz, thanks very much for that input - it has certainly made me reflect - and realise that I need to at some stage brush up on turn-of-the-twentieth century esoteric-order history...
But for now, let me add just a few words. You are correct that, as Waite did not write himself that the reason for the 11-8 interchange was for astrological reasons, then it is conjecture. Also, Mathers's essay on Tarot correctly identifies the Marseilles ordering (except that he numeralises the Fool as zero - please correct me if I'm mistaken on this).
From memory, however, Mathers's essay is more a descriptive one of the Marseilles deck. Within the order, which Waite joined a few years after its formation - and never left - the astrological interposition seems to have been clear.
That Waite himself may have suggested the interchange is an interesting proposition, though given the post-1900 factions, one would have expected the Felkin and Mathers groups to stick to non-Waite material (which they did - as it was only later that Waite re-formed the already splinter Golden Dawn group 'Independent and Rectified Rite' to the 'Fellowship of the Rosy Cross', removing its more magical ceremonial aspects).
With regards to Eliphas Levi, it was, after all, his influence upon both the Golden Dawn and the Kabbalistic Order of the Rose Cross which 'enabled' these orders to incorporate usage of the Tarot. Levi identified, of course, the Marseilles sequence, but probably did not use the cards for magical ceremonies, and thus no interchange based on astrological consideration was necessary.
Could the idea for interchanging have come from outside the Golden Dawn? In an indirect way, certainly, for Justice had already been linked to Maat, which itself had already been connected to Libra. These connections and their ordering, however, only becomes significant hurdles when wanting to use these sequentially within magical ceremonies. If this is the case, an interchange within the Golden Dawn becomes very likely - a change which, very probably, would have been made prior Waite going through the rituals as a candidate.
But as mentioned, this remains, no matter how corroborated, speculation - but speculation which seems, to me at least, more reasonable than proposing that Waite proposed the interchange: whereas Waite sought very much to work within traditions given him, it was Mathers who had the temerity to make brilliant 'corrections' to whichever aspect needed modification for the purposes of creating effective magical rituals - changes which remain, however, unfortunate to my eyes.
Minderwiz, thanks very much for that input - it has certainly made me reflect - and realise that I need to at some stage brush up on turn-of-the-twentieth century esoteric-order history...
But for now, let me add just a few words. You are correct that, as Waite did not write himself that the reason for the 11-8 interchange was for astrological reasons, then it is conjecture. Also, Mathers's essay on Tarot correctly identifies the Marseilles ordering (except that he numeralises the Fool as zero - please correct me if I'm mistaken on this).
From memory, however, Mathers's essay is more a descriptive one of the Marseilles deck. Within the order, which Waite joined a few years after its formation - and never left - the astrological interposition seems to have been clear.
That Waite himself may have suggested the interchange is an interesting proposition, though given the post-1900 factions, one would have expected the Felkin and Mathers groups to stick to non-Waite material (which they did - as it was only later that Waite re-formed the already splinter Golden Dawn group 'Independent and Rectified Rite' to the 'Fellowship of the Rosy Cross', removing its more magical ceremonial aspects).
With regards to Eliphas Levi, it was, after all, his influence upon both the Golden Dawn and the Kabbalistic Order of the Rose Cross which 'enabled' these orders to incorporate usage of the Tarot. Levi identified, of course, the Marseilles sequence, but probably did not use the cards for magical ceremonies, and thus no interchange based on astrological consideration was necessary.
Could the idea for interchanging have come from outside the Golden Dawn? In an indirect way, certainly, for Justice had already been linked to Maat, which itself had already been connected to Libra. These connections and their ordering, however, only becomes significant hurdles when wanting to use these sequentially within magical ceremonies. If this is the case, an interchange within the Golden Dawn becomes very likely - a change which, very probably, would have been made prior Waite going through the rituals as a candidate.
But as mentioned, this remains, no matter how corroborated, speculation - but speculation which seems, to me at least, more reasonable than proposing that Waite proposed the interchange: whereas Waite sought very much to work within traditions given him, it was Mathers who had the temerity to make brilliant 'corrections' to whichever aspect needed modification for the purposes of creating effective magical rituals - changes which remain, however, unfortunate to my eyes.
