Dodal and Zoni: Upside down flowers

[Umbrae]

The ‘Zoni’ deck (Ancient Tarot of Bologna LS) has ‘one-way backs’. When they are placed right-side up, the Four of Swords displays an upside down flower.

The Dusserre Dodal TdM has the Bibliothèque Nationale stamp on the bottom of each card giving it an upright and reversed position. When oriented correctly, the Four of Swords displays a flower in the center of the card. Upside down.

It has been assumed that LS and the BN were 'asleep at the switch' – with the same card. (there was a JMD quote someplace about this but I am unable to find it).

Coincidence?

Now even though it is not true TdM, and the suit is different, Edmond Billaudot placed a flower bud down (upside down) in the Quatre Sceptres on the “Le Grand Tarot Belline”

So my question is…how convinced are we that the flowers should all be bud’s up?

Is it possible that something has been ‘forgotten’ between 1863 (when Billaudot did his hand-made deck) and now?

The 1980 Grimaud places the copyright symbol and date in the top left providing orientation for the card. The flower is ‘upright’. Has it been rectified?

 

[Fulgour]

I orient the flowers heads-downward and all the other
swords too, except for the Ace and the ten card pair.

A study of the Dodal with smudging from many hands
will show a consistent pattern through the entire deck
that suggests how not just swords, but all pips went.

I have an English language Bolognese that does this~
a funny deck from 2001 by a little publisher in the UK.

 

[tmgrl2]

Not sure you meant this thread, Umbrae...but when I got my Hadar, I was confused with the orientations Kris Hadar assigned to upright vs. reversed....

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35456

So...I went back and "sorted" those out....the Hadar orientations are the ones he ascribes to as translated from his book (French) by me.

Not saying I "agree" with any particular orientation, since at the time, I was just curious about the upright versus reversed. Actually, I just read the card the way I turn it up.

For the Hadar I reported on all of the suits.

The swords had some "exceptions."

terri

 

[Umbrae]

Not sure you meant this thread, Umbrae...but when I got my Hadar, I was confused with the orientations Kris Hadar assigned to upright vs. reversed....

uh no terri, there was a thread, and I know JMD could find it, he posted in it, where they discussed the placing of the BN on the four of swords. I thought it was JMD who stated they many have slipped up on that one - but - I don't remember for sure what thread. Cannot find it.
However I'm now thinking the flower is supposed to be blossom downward.

 

[jmd]

I'm not sure where I wrote what, and whether what I wrote (depending on how long past and in what context) I would want to be held to outside of that context.

Regarding the BN stamp on the cards, my comment in general is that as this is a much later addition by the library's acquisitor or other person, we should perhaps not take it as a determining factor in uprightness or other.

With the Dodal, there is in fact quite a simpler way of checking what the engraver likely intended, as its backing is non-reversible (the 'pate d'oi'). IF the Dusserre reprint is accurate both back and front of cards, then the BN stamp did not use the non-reversible back to determine uprightness (observe, for example, the 2 and 10 Bastons).

In terms of reading, I may have made a comment (in the 'How may it be read' threads) that it may be seen that an flower-head up may represent growth, and that a cutting, such as on the four swords, may likewise suggest growth if up, or decay if down. That, however, is in a reading context, and not necessarily the intended 'uprightness' of the card by its woodcarver.

Then there are cards, such as the two and four bastons, that have 'cuttings' on both sides, requiring one to be viewed pointing down, the other up.

 

[Umbrae]

In no way did I want to make implications on what you (JMD) said, and you are correct as stated above. I finally found the quote

The BN stamp, the copyright stamp (that even varies on different editions of the Grimaud, for example), or the added numbering, again shows that person's preference - and in the case of the BN stamp, I suggest it may even have been simply stamped at the bottom of however the cards were presented, without much reflection or insight for cards that do not display a 'clear' uprightness in their imagery.

.
My post is not about your comments, but about if the card is upright - is the blossom properly dispalyed in a downward position.

 

[le pendu]

A very good thread Umbrae, thanks for bringing up a subject that many of us need some help/guidence on (well I do at least!).

This brings so much to light the consideration of the TdM's "non-illustrated" pips... with some awareness and thought, they DO seem very illustrated indeed!

It is extremely interesting when comparing the early decks to consider what was included on the cards. The cardmakers could easily have left off so many many little details, but in fact, we have a rich vocabulary to discuss and discover.

best,
robert

 

[Umbrae]

...This brings so much to light the consideration of the TdM's "non-illustrated" pips... with some awareness and thought, they DO seem very illustrated indeed!

which is why I hate the term un or non-illustrated. I prefer non-scenic, because they are illustrated! The more time one spends with them, the deeper they become. similarities become apparent, and discrepancies leap out,

a whole thread can be written about the hand positions of Le Bateleur and La Papesse…or the one lone…inverted flower.

 

[jmd]

The inverted flower is indeed interesting, Umbrae - and I took your original posts to be of importance, especially in regards to the possible manner in which the symbol, as symbol, may have been considered in earlier days.

Two cathedral images come to mind that may be considered of partial significance.

On the one hand, there is a series of cuttings (but attached to each other with rope). Here the image shows that each part hangs down. At least with stone carvings, it is clear how the carver intended its viewing (clicking on the thumbnail image will take you to a full size version):

​

For the upward growth, there is a stonecarving that seems also somewhat relevant, here with what appears to be more rosehips:

​

Of course, neither of these are from tarot, and neither does it solve the 'problem' of cards that depict cuttings facing two opposite directions.

What it does show, however, is that there is some merit in considering the downward hanging cutting as considered 'natural' or 'upright' on such cards as, for example, the four swords.

An important detail to consider - so thank you, Umbrae.