joannski3
i have problems telling if the pips are reversed or not in the marseilles deck, particularly with the pentacles and wands. are the reversals just not read for that deck?
reversed pips
Moonbow
Hi joannski3
Welcome to Aeclectic
Here's a link which you may frind useful to read. I asked this same question myself a few years ago:
How to tell the uprightness of Marseille pips
Personally I rarely read the cards reversed, and for me it depends on the deck used, the spread and my mood.
Welcome to Aeclectic
Here's a link which you may frind useful to read. I asked this same question myself a few years ago:
How to tell the uprightness of Marseille pips
Personally I rarely read the cards reversed, and for me it depends on the deck used, the spread and my mood.
eva
hey
Hey Joannski3,
I had the EXACT same problem as you! I got this beautiful Marseilles deck, but with many cards, I cannot tell which side is up! ...SO, I looked in this book of tarot, and there was a Marseilles picture for every card. I will soon mark all the symetric cards with a little dot or something. A few others, it will be just to notice little details to know which side is up.
CUPS: obvious, because of their shape.
WANDS: 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10: symetric.
4:unless you deck is different, the more sunflowerish flower is on the bottom
SWORDS: Every sword/flower is pointing UP, EXCEPT for the 3 of swords (the sword points DOWN)
The 2 and 8 are symetrical.
COINS/PENTICALS: ace, 5, 6, 8, 10: symetrical.
2:the date/word "carta" is on the top part.
3:two coins on top of single coin 4bvious (armoirie thingy)
7:flower between the top coins
9:top flower is blue, bottom flower is red.
There you go, hope it helps. Oh, and if anybody sees that there's something wrong, please tell me cause I don't want to mark my cards wrong.
Hey Joannski3,
I had the EXACT same problem as you! I got this beautiful Marseilles deck, but with many cards, I cannot tell which side is up! ...SO, I looked in this book of tarot, and there was a Marseilles picture for every card. I will soon mark all the symetric cards with a little dot or something. A few others, it will be just to notice little details to know which side is up.
CUPS: obvious, because of their shape.
WANDS: 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10: symetric.
4:unless you deck is different, the more sunflowerish flower is on the bottom
SWORDS: Every sword/flower is pointing UP, EXCEPT for the 3 of swords (the sword points DOWN)
The 2 and 8 are symetrical.
COINS/PENTICALS: ace, 5, 6, 8, 10: symetrical.
2:the date/word "carta" is on the top part.
3:two coins on top of single coin 4
bvious (armoirie thingy) 7:flower between the top coins
9:top flower is blue, bottom flower is red.
There you go, hope it helps. Oh, and if anybody sees that there's something wrong, please tell me cause I don't want to mark my cards wrong.
Clementine_webb
Another way of checking the upright pips
Hello Joannski3,
I have a suggestion, this is what I do. My deck-of-choice is the Ancient Italian Tarots and there are some pip cards which are absolutely impossible to tell up from down right? Well, maybe...
What I have done is I look closely at the artwork. All of the Major Arcana and the Minors have a definite highlight side on the left, and a shaded side on the right. With the tricky pips, look closely at the design, is one side shaded a bit more than the other?
Sometimes its a matter of one extra line, but there usually is a highlighted side and a shaded side. Sometimes the design has a number of elements with varied shading, then I ask which has the "highest" relief in the design that will usually coincide with any additional cards in that suit. F'rinstance, there are some flowers in the Italian Tarot coins that are shaded on the opposite side of other elements of the coins -- but if you compare the way the coins are shaded with other cards in the suit, you will actually see that this is not the element you want to go by.
If you use this method, you can systematically confirm each unclear card and perhaps put a tiny dot on the up side to make it easier to check for reversals when doing a reading.
I haven't checked other decks yet, but I imagine that probably the same goes. With the Italian Deck though, a couple of conclusions can be gleaned from this method.
1. Swords point DOWN in all pips (with the exeption of the Ace, because it's special) and 2. Plants grow UP in all pips.
I hope this clarifies things, and if anyone notices any other Marseilles-style deck where this is not the case, I would love to know since my current collection is limited.
Ciao and take care!
Viki aka Maxxine
Hello Joannski3,
I have a suggestion, this is what I do. My deck-of-choice is the Ancient Italian Tarots and there are some pip cards which are absolutely impossible to tell up from down right? Well, maybe...
What I have done is I look closely at the artwork. All of the Major Arcana and the Minors have a definite highlight side on the left, and a shaded side on the right. With the tricky pips, look closely at the design, is one side shaded a bit more than the other?
Sometimes its a matter of one extra line, but there usually is a highlighted side and a shaded side. Sometimes the design has a number of elements with varied shading, then I ask which has the "highest" relief in the design that will usually coincide with any additional cards in that suit. F'rinstance, there are some flowers in the Italian Tarot coins that are shaded on the opposite side of other elements of the coins -- but if you compare the way the coins are shaded with other cards in the suit, you will actually see that this is not the element you want to go by.
If you use this method, you can systematically confirm each unclear card and perhaps put a tiny dot on the up side to make it easier to check for reversals when doing a reading.
I haven't checked other decks yet, but I imagine that probably the same goes. With the Italian Deck though, a couple of conclusions can be gleaned from this method.
1. Swords point DOWN in all pips (with the exeption of the Ace, because it's special) and 2. Plants grow UP in all pips.
I hope this clarifies things, and if anyone notices any other Marseilles-style deck where this is not the case, I would love to know since my current collection is limited.
Ciao and take care!
Viki aka Maxxine
Clementine_webb
Marseilles Pips are not shaded!
I've been looking at the Marseilles decks (I don't own one--yet)
...tricky...no shading, many of the pips are the same both ways...how maddening (for those who read reversals).
I've been looking at the Marseilles decks (I don't own one--yet)
...tricky...no shading, many of the pips are the same both ways...how maddening (for those who read reversals).
Clementine_webb
Dealiing with reversals
Hi All, I've been thinking about this problem.
I've since acquired a Marseilles-style deck and hey! No shading to hint at upright and reversed.
I know you all don't like to mark your decks -- but I have the TINIEST black dot in the top right corner of each card that I put there as soon as I opened my deck. It's not distracting at all, and to me it makes the deck more "mine".
Just a thought.
~Maxx
Hi All, I've been thinking about this problem.
I've since acquired a Marseilles-style deck and hey! No shading to hint at upright and reversed.
I know you all don't like to mark your decks -- but I have the TINIEST black dot in the top right corner of each card that I put there as soon as I opened my deck. It's not distracting at all, and to me it makes the deck more "mine".
Just a thought.
~Maxx
Sulis
I think that if you can't tell whether the cards in a deck are upright or reversed then maybe you're not meant to read them reversed - so I don't.
For me, every card has a whole range of meaning in it anyway, ranging from the traditionally upright to the traditionally reversed... I find that you can usually tell which way to read a card by the other cards in the spread, the position meaning of the spead, the question - in other words, you can tell by the context.
For me, every card has a whole range of meaning in it anyway, ranging from the traditionally upright to the traditionally reversed... I find that you can usually tell which way to read a card by the other cards in the spread, the position meaning of the spead, the question - in other words, you can tell by the context.
dminoz
Maxxine, thanks for idea about looking at the shading. I have a LS Lombardy deck which I couldn't work the pips for, but when I looked for shading, sure enough it was all there; subtle, but there. Thanks.
I also have an Ancient Italian deck, and I worked out pips for that one a while ago. The wands and swords all have light coming from the top, and so the shadows on all the elements are at the bottom. Because of the way that deck is drawn, it's very easy to see.
No such luck with my Fournier Marseille, though
I also have an Ancient Italian deck, and I worked out pips for that one a while ago. The wands and swords all have light coming from the top, and so the shadows on all the elements are at the bottom. Because of the way that deck is drawn, it's very easy to see.
No such luck with my Fournier Marseille, though
shaveling
Oh dear! I was going to say that my two Fourniers, full size and mini, have roman numerals at the bottom of each pip card. Maybe it's different for different editions? The new Universal Marseilles also seems to use the sort of system my Fourniers do.dminoz said:No such luck with my Fournier Marseille, though
The Rodes-Sanchez and the Jodorowsky-Camoin both have a copyright notice at the bottom left corner of each card. But I've read here that the copyright notice in various printings of the Grimaud have wandered around a bit. They certainly aren't on the same place on each card in my decks. It doesn't matter if the copyright notice moves from its current place on the upper right of the Convos: the artist's initials are at the base of each card.
Kris Hadar has a system of identifying uprights and reversals built into the designs of his Marseille deck. You can read about that in this post by tmgrl2.
Among the photo reproduction decks, the Heron Conver is the one I know of with a mark for finding uprights and reversals. Someone in the Bibliotheque Nationale put a red library stamp at the base of each card in the original deck.
Having some Marseille decks with markers for upright and reversals can be a problem as much as a solution. You may find yourself disagreeing with the red stamp guy, or Kris Hadar, or whomever, about which way is up. Myself, I disagree with Fournier about the Four of Batons. So I just turn that card around and am happy with the IIII being at the top instead of the bottom on that particular card.
Another way to check on the Ancient Italian, by the way, is to turn it over. The backs seem reversible, but they're not, really. Check the pair of big flowers at either end of the cards.
dminoz
shaveling said:
Shaveling, are you talking about the coloured, painted Fournier Marseilles?
I mean this one:
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/marseille-fournier/
If so, which edition do you have -- what are the backs like?
My edition is the one with the brown geometric design on the back, with seven little white flowers. The pip cards have the roman numerals, when they have them, on the sides, so there is no way of using them to tell top from bottom.
If there is another edition that has a different numbering system, I'd get it.
