Elemental Magick question: Cups as water or air?

[giuwah]

So this may seem like a silly question, one might automatically assume, that cups are water type, but could they be air type as well?

I ask this because it relates to the "half full, half empty" philosophy. If cups are half empty/full they will be half full of air. Its kind of like the Aquarian sign... most people who don't know anything about astrology think Aquarians are water bearing the name, "water bearier", but they bear water, as do clouds, so they are air signs...

what do you think?

water can be pretty unstable, as well as air, but I see water being a bit more violent then air. Air/wind can do serious damage, but water can flood out entire towns/cities.

 

[Thirteen]

I ask this because it relates to the "half full, half empty" philosophy. If cups are half empty/full they will be half full of air.

Um, not really. I mean, it doesn't quite work that way in Tarot. I mean, yes, scientifically an empty cup is full of air. But if tarot used this, then we would never have an "empty" cup, would we? All cups would be "full" even if there was no liquid in them. And in tarot that makes no sense as the Cups are Water/Emotion.

Thus, the empty cup means "no water"--not "full of air." Dry, not wet. And this, in turn means "no emotions left." How are you when someone sucks you dry of emotions? You sit there numb, unable to talk or think or do anything. What is left behind is a vacuum. Nothing--not "air" meaning you want to think or talk. So the empty cup tells the reader that the person is numb or has nothing to give any more. Or that they've lost the emotions that others gave them--they spilled the cup and it's now empty of what was in it. What was valuable.

If it helps, think of a thirsty person. The liquid in the cup is what matters. No thirsty person thinks: "Well, at least my empty cups is full of air for me to breathe." They think, "Alas, I've nothing to drink!" That is how you need to see the cups. That I can think clearly isn't going to give me joy if all I can think about is, "the love is gone from my life." So half-full of air is not the same as half-empty of water, not in Tarot.

Yes?

 

[Thirteen]

Just to Add...

Just to add, remember also that the sword or dagger is Air. The Cup can't be Air because another suit, another emblem has that element. The Cups can't steal away that element or any aspect of that element from the other suit. That's the way Tarot works.

 

[Trogon]

Yeah ... what Thirteen said!

Okay, I do actually want to add one thing though. Each of the suits represents one of the four basic alchemical elements, Fire (Wands), Water (Cups), Air (Swords) and Earth (Pentacles). Those representations are, with few exceptions pretty standard and they are useful to help us with interpreting the cards. Aeclectic Tarot does have a page on these associations; http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/suits.shtml

And, since these associations directly relate to what the suits represent, in the case of your question, for most of us, no, they don't mix. (There are some exceptions with the Court cards though, in that the courts themselves have similar associations and so, can have a "mixing" of the elements.)

I hope that helps ...

 

[giuwah]

Um, not really. I mean, it doesn't quite work that way in Tarot. I mean, yes, scientifically an empty cup is full of air. But if tarot used this, then we would never have an "empty" cup, would we? All cups would be "full" even if there was no liquid in them. And in tarot that makes no sense as the Cups are Water/Emotion.

Thus, the empty cup means "no water"--not "full of air." Dry, not wet. And this, in turn means "no emotions left." How are you when someone sucks you dry of emotions? You sit there numb, unable to talk or think or do anything. What is left behind is a vacuum. Nothing--not "air" meaning you want to think or talk. So the empty cup tells the reader that the person is numb or has nothing to give any more. Or that they've lost the emotions that others gave them--they spilled the cup and it's now empty of what was in it. What was valuable.

If it helps, think of a thirsty person. The liquid in the cup is what matters. No thirsty person thinks: "Well, at least my empty cups is full of air for me to breathe." They think, "Alas, I've nothing to drink!" That is how you need to see the cups. That I can think clearly isn't going to give me joy if all I can think about is, "the love is gone from my life." So half-full of air is not the same as half-empty of water, not in Tarot.

Yes?

Make sense! It was a thought that never occurred to me before.

 

[Richard]

Cups are not water; they hold water. Cups (the Tarot suit) represent Water (the Element), not water (the compound: H2O). Since drinking cups are suggestive of water, it is convenient to let the Tarot Cups represent the Element Water, although other correspondences are possible. It is, of course, almost always inappropriate to push analogies too far.

 

[Thirteen]

Make sense! It was a thought that never occurred to me before.

Well, you have to remember that tarot cards are trying to get a message across to us. This is why the cups are water/emotions (and by that we mean "soft" emotions like love, sentimentality, dreaminess), not water & air. Because you need to know when the situation is about those kinds of emotions (cups) rather than intellectual "emotions" like anxiety or paranoia (swords). If Cups were both Water and/or Air...how would you know if, say, someone was emotionally upset or just over-thinking things? (You might well ask: "What if they're doing both?" That's what spread are for, to give you several cards and a larger, more complex picture.)

Does that help?

 

[giuwah]

Cups are not water; they hold water. Cups (the Tarot suit) represent Water (the Element), not water (the compound: H2O). Since drinking cups are suggestive of water, it is convenient to let the Tarot Cups represent the Element Water, although other correspondences are possible. It is, of course, almost always inappropriate to push analogies too far.

No kidding a cup holds water, just like a cloud holds water...

 

[Zephyros]

I guess it's a question of choosing metaphors. What the elements represent may or may not have similarity with their actual compounds, i.e., when I see water, I certainly don't feel like making love to it, or sprout wings when I cut bread with a kitchen knife. Plus, they're not elements at all, not in the way we perceive them today. Perhaps if Tarot were to be invented today, there would not be four suits, but 118.

But I guess a little leap of faith is needed to resolve the system on which Tarot is based.

 

[Thirteen]

No kidding a cup holds water, just like a cloud holds water...

True, but "Magic" doesn't see clouds as holding water, because not all clouds rain water down on us. Magic does see a cup as having that purpose and only that purpose, to hold water. So while a cloud *can* hold water (and scientifically, always does), a cup was meant to hold it. When we see a cup, we see a drinking vessel, something that can contain water. When we see a cloud, we usually don't see it as containing water unless it's all dark and stormy.

So even though clouds have water and are associated with air, that's not how we--or the ancient pagans who came up with these symbols--view them.

The stickier issue is that of swords and wands. In some decks, their elements are switched, and the Sword is fire and the Wand is Air. Some people argue that the sword, forged in fire, should be fire. Most argue that the sword, which cuts and slices (like a cold wind), and, in battle, moves swiftly through the air, is Air--also that since Air is associated with communication and talk that it should go with a clanging sword, which is a physical representation of a verbal argument. The clever swordsman, seeing an opening, wins the argument.

Wands wise, the Air people see wands as wood and trees as related to air. The Fire people see wood as being able to burn, as torches and matches. So wands are fire.

It's totally up to you which rings right. But either way, there's no air in wood, no air in swords. There is no fire in them, either. Just the potential to be "on fire" when creating the sword or burning the wood. My point being, questioning why these elements belong to these symbols starts to get really sticky if you get scientific about it Tarot is poetic and literary and artful, not scientific. So we think about flowing emotions--tears of sadness or joy--and think "water" and Cups are a good emblem for water. We say, "Your words cut me like a knife!" and so associate something that cuts with communication--to communicate we must breathe. So Swords become air. We say, "you have a fiery passion" or a "blazing temper." We associate these with fire; and what usually catches fire? Wood. So Wands become "fire." And we get real literal with the Pents--coin is what you use to buy things. Things are solid, like earth. Pents are earth.

These four emblems and four elements are from ancient paganism. They may not make much sense in the here and now, but they are what they are: symbolic shorthand for different aspects of humankind and the human experience.

Yes? No?