Fools journey through reversed major arcana?

[Eider]

Depressing subject maybe. I have been thinking about Fools journey and I wonder if Tarot readers also think reversed major arcana as a kind of another alternative of what happens when the Fool tries to grow as a person. I see a really sad story. I see something that has happened to many. I haven't been thinking much further and I haven't studied enough to claim I know anything but I keep seeing it like a journey of a traumatized young person trying to build his or her own life while carrying a huge burden of trauma.

I was a bit afraid of creating this thread because I am such a novice but I would really like to hear your thoughts. I tried to search something like this but couldn't find much. But anyway. To me the story seems to go roughly like this. I see a lot of variations I didn't mention. It's not so stiff. (I use the pronoun "he" as the Fool is usually male.)

At first the reversed Fool gets free but has no ability to see ahead. He has no clue. At first he seems to meet people with great power but gets manipulated and taken advantage of. Then he realizes he is not in control and doesn't know what to do to gain that control. Maybe he has just tried to manage his own life himself but it gets too hard. Maybe his trauma was always in control. He is lost. He has failed too many times. He doesn't achieve anything. He gets depressed, looses hope, feels isolated. Then he starts seeing himself as a martyr, he starts to hate, looses all balance and tries to medicate his wounded soul with alcohol or other addictive things (there are many variations). He tries to forget his loneliness and all that trauma he has but knows it doesn't really help. Everything continues to collapse, all hope gets lost and there is a major break down. He goes into madness. If he survives that he starts maybe get better, he maybe gets help but his fear of his past and what he has done doesn't let him accept himself. If he finally finds peace it's incomplete and unbalanced.

How do you see it? I think there is a way out and there is hope. But there is a chance to go into a hellish cycle that has no end. This reversed major arcana story can repeat itself.

Is there even a reversed major arcana journey?

 

[Robby F.]

Though not exactly a "Fool's Journey," Robert Wang in his book _The Qabalistic Tarot_ does journey through the Trumps from The World to The Fool. I had never been able to connect with the Trumps as well until I read his book. I have now read it no less than five times and love it more every time I read it. You said you were a novice, so I will "warn" you that this book is exactly what it says and relies heavily on Hermetic Qabbalism as its main mnemonic. Wang takes the reader from the lowest sefira, Malkuth, and travels the twenty-two paths up the Tree of Life until he reaches the final path leading to Kether, the path of The Fool. One bit of comfort, however, is that Wang does write very well and succeeds in modernizing the sometimes obtuse language of earlier writers without dumbing it down a bit. It is one of my go-to sources.

 

[tarotbear]

Reversed as in 'All the Majors are Upside-Down' but you are still traveling from 1 - 21; or The Fool starts with The World and travels backwards to the Magician (Upright or otherwise)?

 

[Eider]

Robby F. I am really a novice and just starting to get in to all symbolism in Tarot and such. I find it all fascinating though. Maybe I try to find that book you mentioned, search more about it. (Who is the author by the way?)

tarotbear, yes, I was indeed travelling from 1-21. I didn't even think that it could go other way. I have to think about it.

This message posted itself somehow too early (with the help of my fingers that tend to go wild with the keyboard) so I am sorry if this post is short. I wanted to answer quickly after the post went too early.

 

[laurence]

I think It's clever to even think about It ( I am not aware of someone who has done such a research before).

So if the fool go through his journey meeting reversed energies, how can he understand the meaning of the challenges he has to face?
If I understand, the fool will go through his journey by working with the shadow side of each energy. So It's a little bit like the dance between darkness and light as if we don't see the shadow, we will not understand the light of It.

The concept is very interesting to me. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Eider]

I think It's clever to even think about It ( I am not aware of someone who has done such a research before).

So if the fool go through his journey meeting reversed energies, how can he understand the meaning of the challenges he has to face?
If I understand, the fool will go throught his journey by working with the shadow side of each energy. So It's a little bit like the dance between darkness and light as if we don't see the shadow, we will not understand the light of It.

The concept is very interesting to me. Thanks for sharing.

I didn't really find anything about the whole story of reversed Fools journey when I tried to search but internet is internet and I don't own any books yet about Tarot.

But. If there was no negative there is no meaning of positive. Some of the wisest people have seen the dark side, mental ilnesses and such. Otherwise thet could not be so compassionate and thoughtful. They also know the meaning of recilience.

And what if the Fool has gone throught the reversed set of major arcana first and then found some strength to do it all again with new enthusiasm? The thought almost makes me cry. I think it could happen.

Now I keep thinking about minor arcana too. There is stories too. What if it is all reversed also? Not very nice stories either but life is not very nice always.

 

[laurence]

I didn't really find anything about the whole story of reversed Fools journey when I tried to search but internet is internet and I don't own any books yet about Tarot.

But. If there was no negative there is no meaning of positive. Some of the wisest people have seen the dark side, mental ilnesses and such. Otherwise thet could not be so compassionate and thoughtful. They also know the meaning of recilience.

And what if the Fool has gone throught the reversed set of major arcana first and then found some strength to do it all again with new enthusiasm? The thought almost makes me cry. I think it could happen.

Now I keep thinking about minor arcana too. There is stories too. What if it is all reversed also? Not very nice stories either but life is not very nice always.

I agree, It makes perfect sense to me.
The Fool by reaching the stage of the world reversed realises at least that nothing disappears but everything changes and will do It all again with the lessons he has learnt from an ugly world.

 

[AJ]

The world is 4.54 billion years old. Certainly we, and humankind have taken the path many times, up down and sideways.

Some decks are meant to start the minors at 10 and work back to 1 rather than the reverse.
Welcome to AT!

 

[Eider]

I agree, It makes perfect sense to me.
The Fool by reaching the stage of the world reversed realises at least that nothing disappears but everything changes and will do It all again with the lessons he has learnt from an ugly world.

If there is anything constant in the world it is change. And after living in chaos one knows what their chaos is and how to avoid it. They know things about themselves many don't. The Fools journey seems empowering without reversed cards and he has to struggle also. The result is not possible without shadows and negative. There is some cards along the way that indicate thinking and facing the past. The Fool has encountered dark things before.

The world is 4.54 billion years old. Certainly we, and humankind have taken the path many times, up down and sideways.

Some decks are meant to start the minors at 10 and work back to 1 rather than the reverse.
Welcome to AT!

World is very old and the universe is older. Human brain is one of the most compex and also one of the most beautiful things we know.

I don't know about (or I haven't seen) many decks but I always enjoy trying to find the story they tell.

 

[ravenest]

Depressing subject maybe. I have been thinking about Fools journey and I wonder if Tarot readers also think reversed major arcana as a kind of another alternative of what happens when the Fool tries to grow as a person. I see a really sad story. I see something that has happened to many. I haven't been thinking much further and I haven't studied enough to claim I know anything but I keep seeing it like a journey of a traumatized young person trying to build his or her own life while carrying a huge burden of trauma.

I was a bit afraid of creating this thread because I am such a novice but I would really like to hear your thoughts. I tried to search something like this but couldn't find much. But anyway. To me the story seems to go roughly like this. I see a lot of variations I didn't mention. It's not so stiff. (I use the pronoun "he" as the Fool is usually male.)

At first the reversed Fool gets free but has no ability to see ahead. He has no clue. At first he seems to meet people with great power but gets manipulated and taken advantage of. Then he realizes he is not in control and doesn't know what to do to gain that control. Maybe he has just tried to manage his own life himself but it gets too hard. Maybe his trauma was always in control. He is lost. He has failed too many times. He doesn't achieve anything. He gets depressed, looses hope, feels isolated. Then he starts seeing himself as a martyr, he starts to hate, looses all balance and tries to medicate his wounded soul with alcohol or other addictive things (there are many variations). He tries to forget his loneliness and all that trauma he has but knows it doesn't really help. Everything continues to collapse, all hope gets lost and there is a major break down. He goes into madness. If he survives that he starts maybe get better, he maybe gets help but his fear of his past and what he has done doesn't let him accept himself. If he finally finds peace it's incomplete and unbalanced.

How do you see it? I think there is a way out and there is hope. But there is a chance to go into a hellish cycle that has no end. This reversed major arcana story can repeat itself.

Is there even a reversed major arcana journey?

I have mapped the Major Arcana progressions several ways , both forward and backward. I put a post up somewhere about it a few days ago .... hang on ... here is a very brief sketchy outline of one

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=115004&page=6

@ post 57 (cant remember where the other longer more detailed ones are)

We can extrapolate many styles of 'life journeys' through the map of the tarot. I prefer to detect the root or underlying pattern and flesh out the bones from individual (mine or others) specific experiences .

To do the reverse (and this is a big criticism I have of some tarot interpretations) , that is, to think of a manifested 'type' of experience and build up a story from that. The cards DO show a node of that experience but also an 'archetype' of that experience, a 'stage' in progression that can cause a range of events ... not the manifested events themselves, but the forces behind them. It is better to graft a branch on to the trunk of a tree and not onto another branch of the tree.

I dont read card reversed or upside down as I see both possibilities in each card and it depends on how one approaches them or what one does 'about them' and how one uses that energy - that releases specific energies. I see a way out and a way into deeper shit with each card. There is a LOT of gnosis in some decks.

I also think if you are going to use the cards this way, one needs a deep understanding of tarot, a good deck (with a good system attached to it) and a knowledge of, at least, basic psychology.

I cant really comment on your little negative story as I dont quiet follow it and what cards you mean at times and how those states apply to cards. But yes I do see people and society doing exactly as you outline, people DO get stuck on the endless wheel of negative karma ... but one can stop it ... right now! In this lifetime.

Think of all the bad energy stopped if one does do that .... otherwise we pass it on, and it repeats and multiplies and spreads like a virus. I have seen people wander through life like you outline ... there IS a remedy ... but our society doesnt seem to care, it doesnt really matter about that ... or maybe a lot of people have even forgotten what the remedy is?

In a way, what you outline is the state of western society, regardless of any Tarot comparisons, so you may well be onto something? I suppose if tarot CAN show a path of positive individuation in steps and stages then if one looks at the averse of each step ... then one ends up looking at an averse story.

All I can offer you is that there is a good and positive plan of development in the Tarot ... it requires back up, a lot of work and accessing processes (the tarot outlines the issues , it doesnt solve them ... just doing readings wont fix the issues) that are related (like I mentioned psychology above).