how many nicolas conver old decks remains

[Le Marseillais]

Hello all,
I am searching about Tarot cards industry and have some questions that could find answers in our Tarot Community:

I wonder how many Nicolas Conver old decks (full decks of course) still remains in life after all this years passed. In Museums or holds by private collectors.

About technical developments that occured in cards fabrication, can anybody confirms or not the opinion that cards and more specificly Tarot cards became corner rounded around 1856 ? I thinks Grimaud was leader in this change.

Last but no least, I collects Tarot decks backs because I find this very interresting regarding symbols used and colors.
Anybody who has scans and adequate comments/datas could improve my quest.

That 's all for the moment and read you soon.

Thanks,

Yves Le Marseillais

 

[kenji]

Hello Yves
Here's the list of the complete (78 cards) Conver packs I know:

Early-19th-century copies:

- The one in BnF (Paris, FRANCE)
From Paul Marteau Collection. The original of Heron reproduction.

This copy has rather soft colourings, which are clearly distinct from later ones. As to dating, it should have been printed after 1808. (Mr Thierry Depaulis once told me that the caption "CONVER FRANCE", which can be seen on VALET DE BATON, became statutory from 1808.)

-The one in Yale University Library (New Haven, CT, USA)
from Cary Collection (Catalogue Number - FRA 155).

I asked Yale University Library and confirmed that this copy has the similar colourings to BnF copy, and that the left eye of LA JUSTICE is not missing. And this pack also has "CONVER FRANCE" caption on VALET cards.


Mid-19th-century copy

-The one in my collection (Fukuoka, JAPAN)
The left eye of LA JUSTICE is missing, but the left eye of LE PENDU & the mouth of TEMPERANCE are not. The back design is monochrome "cailloutis" pattern. I suppose this copy was produced around 1860. (As to this dating, Mr Depaulis was affirmative.)


Late-19th-century copies

-The one in Guildhall Library (London, UK)
From "the Worshipful Company of Makers of Playing Cards" Collection.
Once an anonymous maker made a reproduction deck after this copy.

-The one in Tadahiro Onuma collection(Tokyo, JAPAN)
The pictures of 22 trumps can be seen at the following page:
http://www.tarot-university.com/modules/tinyd3/index.php?id=3
(You can see larger images by clicking thumbnails.)

In the two copies above, the eyes of LA JUSTICE & LE PENDU and the mouth of TEMPERANCE are all missing.

And I once saw another copy similar to them at eBay (I don't know where it is now...).


Post-1880s deck [with 5 colours]

-The one in Ronald Decker collection (USA)
With no tax stamp. The back design is red "basket weave" pattern.

-The one in my collection (Fukuoka, JAPAN)
Once belonged to Stuart & Marilyn Kaplan collection.
With no tax stamp. The back design is blue "tarotee" pattern.

-The one in Musée du Vieux-Marseille (Marseilles, FRANCE)
from Camoin collection. With 1890 tax stamp. (probably pasted onto large sheets of paper)

-The one in Chambre de Commerce et d'Industie de Marseille-Provence
(Marseilles, FRANCE)
"Donation Camoin". I don't know if this copy has a tax stamp or not.

-The one in the late Sylvia Mann collection
Pictures can be seen in M. Dummett's "The Game of Tarot".
post-1880s copy. (But I am not sure if this is a complete copy.)
It seems it's not known where this copy is now.

In addition, another complete 5-colour pack can be seen in 1978 Stanley Gibbons Auctions catalogue.

I hope this helps.

Kenji

P.S.
Fournier Museum also has a copy of Conver tarot, but I don't know which kind of copy it is...

 

[kenji]

Corners

According to catalogue descriptions or pictures, all the pre-1880s (multicoloured) copies I mentioned in the last post have SQUARE corners.
On the other hand, my post-1880s (5-colour) copy has ROUND corners.

So, I assume Conver tarots began to have round corners (and 5 colours) after the "M&A" between Grimaud and Camoin in the late 1880s. Perhaps it was Grimaud that provided Camoin with the latest card-making equipments. (The two innovations may not have been adopted at the same time, though.)

 

[Debra]

There are six known complete Conver decks from the 1800's and Kenji has one of them? How exciting!

(I've been to Fukuoka--if only I'd known I was so close to such a rarity!)

 

[kenji]

I have modified my first post to make some addition and correction.

There are six known complete Conver decks from the 1800's and Kenji has one of them? How exciting!

(I've been to Fukuoka--if only I'd known I was so close to such a rarity!)

Hi Debra,
Wow, you have visited Fukuoka? I hope you liked it

 

[kenji]

incomplete copies list

Here are some copies which lack one or more card(s).

-The one in British Museum (London, UK)
from Lady Charlotte Schreiber collection.
77 (or 76?) cards. Pre-1880s copy.

-The one in Yale University Library (New Haven, CT, USA)
from Cary collection (Catalogue Number - FRA 156).
76 cards (lacks L'HERMITE and the Ace of Swords.)
Pre-1880s copy.

-The one in a private collection (Turin, ITALY)
The original of Lo Scarabeo's Conver reproduction.
Probably 77 cards (lacks the 6 of Batons?) pre-1880s copy.

-The one in Museum zu Allerheiligen (Schaffhausen, SWITZERLAND)
from Kümpel collection. post-1880s copy with 1890 tax stamp.
77 cards (Probably LE SOLEIL is missing).


And fragmentary copies also:

-The one in Miike Playing-Card & History Museum of Omuta City
(Fukuoka, JAPAN)
Only 9 cards. around 1800 or earlier (TEMPERANCE's face is flawless with all the features!) Mr Depaulis says this is the earliest copy he knows of.

-The one in Deutsches Spielkarten-Museum Leinfelden-Echterdingen
(Leinfelden-Echterdingen, GERMANY)
20 cards. I don't know if this one is pre- or post-1880s.

-The ones in Simon Wintle collection (UK)
2 assorted sets (15 and 48 cards each). Both pre-1880s.
They are ON SALE.
http://wopc.co.uk/tp/list2.html


Of course there should be more...

 

[metawill]

Tadahiro's Tarot

Hi everyone,
fantastic informations we find here! Thank You Kenji. Is Tadahiro saying specificaly that the Conver is his? I knew him around 2001 when we traveled a bit together with Philippe Camoin, and I know they work together in this University, at least, they intended to...

 

[metawill]

Tadahiro's Tarot (suite)

Hi again everyone,
I just noticed something strange on this card from Tadahiro : http://www.tarot-university.com/images/tarot_c/251/18.jpg We can see, on the right, the begining of another frame, with no separation in between. How can it be, since we can see that the other cards are cut? (droped shadow)

 

[le pendu]

Hi again everyone,
I just noticed something strange on this card from Tadahiro : http://www.tarot-university.com/images/tarot_c/251/18.jpg We can see, on the right, the begining of another frame, with no separation in between. How can it be, since we can see that the other cards are cut? (droped shadow)

Good question! It's as if the cards were scanned from a sheet rather than already cut.

Sorry I don't have an answer, but thanks for pointing it out!

 

[metawill]

Nicolas Conver

Kenji, it would be very nice if you could post a couple of cards from your own pre-camoin N.Conver deck, with a back. Especially to see the green, which is so altered in all the versions we mainly know. Why not LE PENDU ?