Is my timing correct for trying to read with historical decks?

[pacificwaters]

Reading with a TdM shouldn't be either easier or more difficult than reading with and RWS, just very different. Remember that these are the "original" tarot decks, created at a time when there were no LWBs, no rules to follow, and especially, no RWS scenes to "pollute" your thinking.

I guess "polluting" is the most apt word that you used here. I am experiencing that myself. Every time a pip comes up, and I have to think, a corresponding RWS imagery instantly comes to my mind. It would probably take quite some time before I get used to not having the imagery come up for me...!

But I do encourage you to try, I think there is nothing really better than a Marseilles to sharpen the intuitive wits upon. As much as I love the RWS, those images are kind of like crutches, from a certain point of view.

I would agree with you on this, but its going to actually be a "task" for me considering that I have only leaned on RWS ever since I started with Tarot. But then yes, I actually am looking forward to acquainting myself with Golden Tarot and TdM more, just to sharpen my intuition...

It is perfectly alright to apply any meanings you wish to the Marseille, including those of the Rider-Waite (which derive from the Golden Dawn system).

This is happening passively to me whenever I read with this deck, just because I have associated certain keywords with the imagery of RWS...At times I wonder if this is right as well, but then since all cards have a basic theme underlying them, I "feel" that I may be right..!

Of course, Trumps 8 (Justice) and 11 (Strength) of the Marseille were interchanged by the Golden Dawn in order to make them compatible with certain Kabbalistic correspondences to the Hebrew letters assigned to the inter-sephirotic paths on the Tree of Life.

I did realize the interchanging of trump numbers for Justice and Strength..!

In my opinion, the Marseille works better without the additional Golden Dawn baggage with which the RWS is burdened, not that the latter is without merit. I would suggest looking into the various methods for reading the pips which are intrinsic to the Marseille. You are bound to find a method with which you feel comfortable.

As of now I am sort of handicapped with the RWS imagery which I mentioned above and which @closrapexa even pointed out. With time I am trying to go through the forum on At which is dedicated to TdM. It is a monumental read, but I am hoping I would better my skills as time passes, AND if I am able to stick to TdM and Golden Tarot...

That these two decks are historical in nature and come with the promise of sharpening intuition is actually making me stick to them

Thank you @closrapexa and @LRichard for your inputs. Appreciate them a lot especially since I am still taking baby steps...

@SunChariot I always appreciate your pep talks on AT. Somehow I had a hunch (would "intuition" be a better word here ??) that you would reply to this question of mine as well, just like you have in the past. Thank you

 

[le_charior]

Hello! I agree with everything that was said before in this thread - you have to follow what feels right for you, what fascinates you. I can't really advise much since I started with the Tarot de Marseille and so far haven't really left it (even if I bought some RWS based decks, but just weird or crazy or very modern ones...).

I wanted to add two things: Yes, the Historic section of the forum is a monumental read, as you said, I am still discovering new and amazingly rich threads all the time. The Forum Table of Contents is a great place to start. I started doing daily draws, reading the threads with the historic, iconographic background - and when this gets too crazy, there are always the "How Can It Be Read" threads, for a more practical approach. There are nice general threads, "Tips for reading with the Marseilles", "Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks", there are a lot of good ones. The amazing thing, for me, is that you dive into so many areas at once, history, mythology, symbolism, iconography, art... and it's all bundled into these seemingly simple cards

And, second thing: As the host of the TdM exchange I wanted to warmly second Sulis proposition to take part as soon as you feel comfortable enough! It is a nice and friendly place with very different levels of experience, and in my opinion the best way to learn and advance in reading with the TdM (if you decide to continue on that path). If you are willing to invest some time and effort into an exchange, I think this could be very very helpful! Also very interesting to read through the exchanges of the last months so see how people read with it - the links are all in the sign up threads over in the historic section.

As for RWS: I think there is no harm done if you have RWS meanings slip into your mind when you look at a pip card (or any card actually) - just continue looking at the actual card image, let the keywords go, let the image talk to you, the flowers, the eyes, the colors... it takes more time, like a little meditation, staring at the card, the cards, emptying your mind... and I am sure there will be an idea, an intuition, something popping into your brain. And the beautiful thing with the TdM, and especially the pips is that you CAN'T BE WRONG because you have the right to make your own rules.

So! Long story short: Welcome to the fascinating world of the Marseille and all the other historic decks! And I didn't even ask WHICH TdM deck you have, don't want to confuse you any further with the hundreds of wonderful possibilities for TdM decks

 

[tarotcognito]

Dittoing what everyone here has said. The Tarot is your to discover in your own way, in your own time. If you feel drawn to trying out a historical deck, try it out. If you find you're not comfortable with it, move on to another deck. There is no right or wrong in Tarot. What really matters is what works for you. If, after mucking about with a TdM or the like, you find you simply don't like it or feel overwhelmed, just set it aside for a while.

I'm glad the topic of this thread came up because I've just ordered the Ancient Tarot of Lombardy, and although not "historical" in the sense of the TdM, to me it falls in the "historical"-ish category. I love the artwork of the Lombardy deck but for the longest time felt skittish about working with a deck that has unillustrated pips. I really want to work with the Lombardy, though - that Death card is pretty amazing!

 

[pacificwaters]

Every reply that I am getting here is getting me more and more upbeat about the historical decks...! Thank you

I was just going through my journal looking through the writings I did when I was new to RWS, and I realised that my thought process with TdM currently is just as it was with RWS when I started out..This is sort of giving me hope that maybe with time I would be better with TdM if I keep trying..!! Fingers crossed though..

Btw, just as you stated I am actually looking through the Forum Table of Contents @le_charior. And also realising that other than the key words which might be common for the two different style of decks, these two have a lot of difference amongst them as regards the reading styles... As regards the other details I shall send you over a PM too..

 

[le_charior]

you'll see, you'll be hooked on TdM sooner or later (there is or was a user with this name, great nick and so true )

replied to your pm - but wanted to add that there are so many different ways of reading the pips, and TdM decks in general, that you will always find contradictory information. Consider it more as options for you to chose from: numerology, visual intuition, relation to majors, elaborate systems with fixed meanings per card, colors... no right or wrong system here, just different approaches! so take your time, read around, experiment, and have fun!

 

[alesia]

Tarot is a very personal journey; if you feel you're ready to tackle the TdM, I say go for it!

If I were in your shoes, I would probably start with the Liz Dean deck, whose pips are more modern and what the folks around here call 'semi-scenic', and work from there into the Marseille, but then, I am more comfortable with semi-scenic pips with backgrounds and stuff.

I found my first historical deck, the Lo Scarabeo Ancient Italian (a Soprafino), difficult to read, so I've taken the tact of learning to read with semi-scenic pips first - the Thoth, the Trevisan Crystal Tarots (mostly based on the Spanish school), and the Lo Scarabeo Vachetta deck. While none of these decks' pips are RWS-style 'snapshot on a card', they are certainly evocative! (Thoth 2 of Wands - I rest my case!) Once I get more comfortable with that, I plan on going back to the Soprafino, and on to my cute little mini Burdel TdM, and see what happens with the vines and flowers.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is that you have to find the path that is right for you. Weaning yourself away from the RWS for a while can only help you learn and grow as a reader, even if you end up preferring the RWS to older, less esoteric decks.

 

[Mallah]

I gotta chime in here as pro pip. I have spent much much time with RWS and Thoth style decks in the past, but pips are just great.

Think of yourself in Never-never land...or Wonderland. Where IMAGINATION is key. Nothing is right....nothing is wrong; we're all crazy here, said the cat and smiled quietly to himself.

Thing is if you go to never never land without your imagination (providing you could even GET there)... you will quickly be labeled as a pirate.

The other day i found a face in my 8 of cups TdM card. I had a long conversation with it and it told me much about the 8 of cups. Those meanings will be there next time...or maybe not. (Providing I use that deck...) The point was that the artwork was abstract enough to let Imagination go free. With the illustrated minors, someone ELSES imagination has run free with it and while your imagination may creatively link up some things about those pictures, maybe even ones that no one else has thought of, it's still someone elses interpretation being shown you there.

Remember, I am saying this as one who has used RWS for 26 years. TdM (other pips too...Crystal, Universal Waite, Courtney Davis Celtic,) are WAY FUN. And yes, I have the RWS meanings there in the back of the closet of my mind. Just in case i draw a blank. But I never do. (I try not to run to them first, tho...that's the temptation when you are learning)

The thing that, I think, makes us mistrust our own hearts, imaginations, and intuition, is...how can this whimsical imagining of mine actually ring true to somebody ELSE? When I do a reading for Le Charior, for example, halfway around the globe...and throw out the most "random" stuff... and then he comes back and sez it made a lot of sense... or I'm doing a reading and don't even know what the heck i'm talking about, and the person comes back and sez, "Oh. My. God... How did you do that?" That's the part that we DON"T get...So we tend to think, "these guys...who studied occult...mystical arts...delved deep into all this stuff thru the "mystery schools..." they must REALLY know, and there must be UNIVERSAL meanings that we must learn in order to interpret the cards with any real power". And so we go marching into Neverland with a set of "Rules" and you KNOW how the "lost boys" are gonna feel about "The Rules!"

Trust the Force, Luke. You know more than you think you do. And what that 3 of Coins meant last time doesn't necessarily apply to this time. Look at the picture. What's it remind you of? Maybe it doesn't even MATTER if there are 8 wands or 10 wands...they look like a frikkin' NET, and what does that mean? Why's the flower look droopy there?

And this same card might look different in a different deck. Go with it.

I will say that knowing some numbers and elements helps. Shoot; it all helps. But try to put the rules out of mind. It's okay to learn the rules...In music (jazz) we have a saying: "forget your chops and blow!" In sports and dance, there's that moment when all the training goes out the window and you forget the rules and just flow with it. When you actually learn to ride that bike, you stop thinking about how the heck you are doing it. Touch typing...Driving a Stick. But, for now, you ARE learning. Enjoy it. Don't get hung on rules and technique, but learn some of the underlying principles as you go.

All of us will say, "Enjoy, enjoy."
And anything we can do to help.
Mallah

 

[pacificwaters]

Tarot is a very personal journey; if you feel you're ready to tackle the TdM, I say go for it!

If I were in your shoes, I would probably start with the Liz Dean deck, whose pips are more modern and what the folks around here call 'semi-scenic', and work from there into the Marseille, but then, I am more comfortable with semi-scenic pips with backgrounds and stuff.

The only thing I find attractive about the Liz Dean deck as of now is the fact that the cards are a bit more colorful than the TdM..! Statistically I have used the Liz Dean deck more times than the TdM though, because until now I was not familiar of the basic differences between these two. Now that I am aware of it through your writings and what le_charior told me, I guess I will be making a choice now..

Weaning yourself away from the RWS for a while can only help you learn and grow as a reader, even if you end up preferring the RWS to older, less esoteric decks.

This is exactly what I have in mind myself. I want to wean myself away from the pictures which guide you.!

I gotta chime in here as pro pip. I have spent much much time with RWS and Thoth style decks in the past, but pips are just great.

Remember, I am saying this as one who has used RWS for 26 years. TdM (other pips too...Crystal, Universal Waite, Courtney Davis Celtic,) are WAY FUN. And yes, I have the RWS meanings there in the back of the closet of my mind. Just in case i draw a blank. But I never do. (I try not to run to them first, tho...that's the temptation when you are learning)

Thank you that Mallah. For someone who used RWS decks for 26 years and still praises the historical decks, does give wings to my decision. But just as you mentioned, "going with flow"... it is here where a bit of trepidation creeps in. It is at these points where you feel that having some basic rules as in RWS is always better. The fear of what comes to your mind being wrong....!! It is due to this that the RWS keywords as a back-up support creep up..

That said, these are just my fears, and I do want to get over this by strengthening my intuition, and which from what I am reading here I feel I might be able to..