Is Tarot Pagan?

[philebus]

As a player, I tend to think in terms of function in play. We can understand the trumps as symbols or as a theme. Any pack of Top Trumps requires a theme to work but I would hesitate to call the cards symbols - we could do of course, and rightly but that is not their function in the game and whatever a Tyranosaur may symbolize in some context, that is probably not the reason for its inclusion. For the game of tarot, the pictures on the trumps had to meet two requirements: 1) they had to differentiate from the regular suits - including the courts. 2) they had to lend to indicating the card order, as numbers were not printed. If the figures of triumph processions were familiar, at least to the original players, and they had a familiar order, then this would be enough for the choice to be a good one, without any regard to what individual figures might symbolize in a religious context.

 

[FrogStone]

That is interesting Philebus ... I wonder then, how would you describe how the theme plays out (for example) if you have Le Diable trumping La Maison Dieu? How does the allegory work out here?
I suppose looking at the cards as independent symbols, gives a different perspective than viewing them as graduating trumps. In other games where you have pieces that are more valuable/powerful than others, I think that says something about the cultural values of the time. In Monopoly, it is quite transparent - one is to accumulate all the wealth and bankrupt the other players. Not being a player with tarot, I wonder how the theme of the trumps play out to define a winner.

 

[Rosanne]

Now here is a good idea! Information from a player!!!!
Ross plays too does he not? It gives a whole new perspective.
I have tried to play, following instructions, but it was not very talented.
Philebus dissected

Familiar order
Trumps differentiated from Courts and Suits

(something along the lines of why I can remember the song the 'Twelve days of Christmas')

Which is why a Classical pagan theme would most likely fail- all those similar robes and stances unless it was like the Mitelli deck. Woodcuts in their simplified way early on (rough as guts) would have all looked the same- we have trouble now discerning what is what in some samples.
I have constantly played (solo) with the Noblet; which I think is a 'table talk' deck, for lots of reasons. I can now tell what I have in my hand from the small amount of card visible when fanned in very low light.
Ahhhh I sob - ideas gone with a wave of a hand
This of course brings me full circle, back to the guilds who had their order in the processions and designed the floats and plays. The Seri (Floats) today still have a medieval look, and in many ways look positively Heathen.
Thanks Marco for your ideas on why a Christian theme would be likely- and it would really take another thread- but special thanks to Philebus for his practical post.

As I sniff sniff at these pragmatic thoughts, I must admit it is with sorrow I leave Prometheus (clever forethought) and Epimetheus (foolish afterthought)
as Bateleur and Fool behind, along with their fates on a wheel, and their tower of Justice........maybe they are two steps away from Christianity on the floats in the Processions???
~Rosanne

 

[Melanchollic]

Hi again FrogStone,

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking here. The position of the Devil, the Devil through the Sun actually, was consistent in all the documented early trump orderings. Excluding the three virtues, which seemed to vary the most in their position within the various orders, the only major variation in the 'post-mortem' cards is the reversal of the Last Judgement and the World in one of the orderings (the 16th century Rosenwald sheet I believe).

I believe Philebus' point is that these allegories were, originally at least, so common that everyone understood the inherent hierarchy of the trump cycle, even when the trumps were not named or numbered. The only real major variation between the various regional cycles was in the positions of the three virtues. So, if there had been a player who thought that the Devil triumphed over the Tower, the other players would have set them straight.

I like these last seven cards a lot (sans virtues). It is a nice little cosmology. Very Dante.

XXI Salvation - The New Jerusalem


XX Release from Purgatory - The Last Judgement


XVII~XIX The Stars, Moon, and Sun - the interim between Heaven and Hell, in other words, all creation


XVI Purgatory (a nod to the blockbuster novel of the same name )


XV Damnation - Hell​

 

[FrogStone]

Hi again FrogStone,

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking here.

Well, not knowing how to play the game, I'm not to sure I know either
What I was getting at is if we can glean any ideology/values/social constructs given to the cards based how they are used in play.
For example, in Monopoly, the basic modus operandi is greed, but there are more subtle strategies involved - one must have funds set aside to cover rents and unexpected events, one must continually invest in properties to make their money "work for them", etc.

In the game of tarot, I am assuming that trumps "of higher value" of some sort overtake "lesser" cards, that there is possibly value in collecting groups of cards.

Maybe the trumps just follow a sequential order of dramatic performances - but it does not seem as if all the trump cards are ordered that way. Could they represent a subtle ordering of the values of the time? And if so, do those values represent the orthodoxy of the church-state, pre-christian classical philosophy, or pagan/heathen/heretical cosmology (or other)?

Can we look at the structuring of the cards in play to possibly indicate the ideological perspective ?

 

[Bernice]

Could they represent a subtle ordering of the values of the time? And if so, do those values represent the orthodoxy of the church-state, pre-christian classical philosophy, or pagan/heathen/heretical cosmology (or other)?

Hi FrogStone,

Not being a historian or a tarot game player, I've thought about it like this:

IF in todays world, here in England, I had the idea of increasing a mundane deck of 52/56 cards - for Game Play - by adding x-amount of major trump cards (illustrated-senic), I would very likely choose the 'offices' of certain public figures and ideologies in the current mind-set of the population. Being me - the creator of these tumps - I might also include 'historical' images that are common public knowledge. These would include some of our so-called 'pagan heritage' - peculiar to England.

So IMHO, the birth of the tarot trumps reflect the social, political, religious, and 'heritage-knowledge' of the time and place they were created in.

Bee

 

[ihcoyc]

IF in todays world, here in England, I had the idea of increasing a mundane deck of 52/56 cards - for Game Play - by adding x-amount of major trump cards (illustrated-senic), I would very likely choose the 'offices' of certain public figures and ideologies in the current mind-set of the population. Being me - the creator of these tumps - I might also include 'historical' images that are common public knowledge. These would include some of our so-called 'pagan heritage' - peculiar to England.

So IMHO, the birth of the tarot trumps reflect the social, political, religious, and 'heritage-knowledge' of the time and place they were created in.

This is pretty close to what I tend to believe about the original purpose, to the extent it can be ascertained, of the images. They may also have been renamed or repurposed over the course of the game's development.

There does seem to be some notional content. The unlucky Grim Reaper is always 13 in every deck he appears in, no matter how many cards it always says. They always end with the images of the Last Judgment and (originally) the Second Coming, in one order or another - and in the standard tradition, the figure of Christ in majesty in his mandorla is reinterpreted as a female nude. The woodcuts weren't always that clear, it seems.

This sort of lore, though, seems to reflect 15th century popular culture more clearly than it reflects Classical mythology or Christian theology. It may be that the Papess once represented Faith, and was ranked with the other Virtues. She seems to have been demoted to a place close to the Mountebank, possibly being interpreted as Mrs. Pope. This kind of creative disregard and repurposing is typical of folk traditions.

 

[Rosanne]

This sort of lore, though, seems to reflect 15th century popular culture more clearly than it reflects Classical mythology or Christian theology. It may be that the Papess once represented Faith, and was ranked with the other Virtues. She seems to have been demoted to a place close to the Mountebank, possibly being interpreted as Mrs. Pope. This kind of creative disregard and repurposing is typical of folk traditions.

There it is, more clearly articulated, than I have been able to do.
...and you are right Ihcoyc ( I am always trying to pronounce ihcoyc )
the word is not Pagan- nor Heathen- but Folk Tradition!!
Bee wrote ..

the birth of the tarot trumps reflect the social, political, religious, and 'heritage-knowledge' of the time and place they were created in.

That is exactly how folk tradition comes about...just think English Nursery rhymes, these hold History,superstition, local customs, religion, ancient lore and the quality of games.
~Rosanne

 

[Bernice]

I agree Rosanne. Ihcoyc (god knows how one might 'say' that...) has hit the nail on the head. It's Folk Tradition!

And yes, our english nursey rhymes are mine of historical info. I once entertained the idea of creating a deck based on them. Halfway through researching them, I discovered that someone else had done it..... not the same as I would have. But been done, so I dropped it.

So I think the Tarot is probably best described as Folk Tradition thumbsup: ihcoyc!)

Bee

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

The name IHCOYC is somebody very famous. However those letters are not meant to be taken as English.

Enough hints - I think ihcoyc wants everybody to discover that for themselves