Jodorowsky rephrases a question

[Sinduction]

I would have walked out too. I'm terrified of becoming a widow because it took me so long to find a good man! As a woman, I am insulted by his take on those cards. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be a widow, there is such a thing as divorce nowadays. I bet that woman was so stunned and embarrassed that she didn't know what to do.

I think we as readers should never assume anything about our sitters. I think the reading he did made him into more of a therapist than a card reader. IMO this is a very dangerous thing to do. Virtually anyone with a deck of cards can claim to be a reader but you need degrees and a license to be a therapist. And I don't believe any therapist would say such a thing to a client. The therapist's job is to get the client to see it for herself. I think his reading was really irresponsible. If he is a therapist, then I think he's a really bad one.

In the event that I feel a sitter needs more help than I can offer, I will (and have) suggested that a therapist may be more helpful.

While I am glad that something opened your eyes to the feelings and thoughts behind the questions our sitters ask us, we walk a fine line. I think our sitters interest should always be of the utmost importance. These are real people's lives, which is more important than what is behind their question.

Of course there are layers of layers behind any question they ask. When people want to know if there current someone is "The One," don't you think they already have an answer in mind? I don't think anyone I've ever read for has not already known what they wanted the answer to be.

I don't see anything wrong with talking more to a client to develop a suitable question however, some clients are unwilling to give too much info. And I doubt very much that anyone would go to a reader and say, "Hey, I really want to be a widow. What do you see?"

Be mindful, we all are walking our own path and we all have our own pain. Try your best to help. That's what we do.

 

[frelkins]

Sinduction, Jodo *is* a therapist. He is a sort-of surrealist neo-Freudian analyst as well as an avant garde director. He has taken his analysis into something he calls "psychomagic" and "psychogeneology." He studied psychology at the university in Chile before he left for France; so he has formal therapy training; it's as a director that he is self-taught.

I strongly suggest everyone at least skim Jodo's Art of Tarot essay. There you can see, for example, that one of the meanings his gives for the Moon reversed is "penis envy" and "female rejection of the deveoping fetus." And of course one of the main criticisms of Freudians, Sinduction, is how sexist and anti-woman Sigmund was!

 

[le fey]

This may be somewhat off topic of his method (which I know nothing of) and whether or not he should have followed his assumption of the question behind the question, but it is giving me food for thought...

It seems this is seriously something to be very mindful of - the filters we attach to someone else's question. When someone asks, say, 'will be get married?' it's maybe not a good idea to assume that the welcome answer will be yes, or that no will be the one requiring comfort. There is a question behind the question, but it may not be as obvious as we might think what it is.

"Will I be a widow?" would totally have been a hopeful question for my grandmother who was not of a culture that allowed for divorce (legal, yes...acceptable, no) and whose husband was abusive and controlling. In the 15 years after he died, I watch her grow 30 years younger. I could see her wondering at some point prior to that if she'd die under his thumb or have some opportunity past her time with him to reclaim her life.

One way I've worked with to get a handle on the 'question under the question' is to use the bottom card of the deck for that very thing... what's really being asked here. If it isn't clear, I'll talk with the questioner about this card, what it's about and most of the time there is a big aha moment where they're able to better articulate what it is they mean... that it's about fear of loneliness or of being tied down too soon or whatever. I'd just rather clarify the reading with the cards rather than depending on my own filters, even when I'm concsciously trying not to.

 

[frelkins]

This may be somewhat off topic of his method (which I know nothing of)

Jodo's method is partially summarized in the Art of Tarot essay, it's relatively approachable there. It's very important to note that Jodo is a nutcase - in the best artistic sense of the word - a fan of Artaud and people even more avant garde. His monthly Mystic Cabaret seminars in Paris are supposed to be amazing, but he is intense and some people come away questioning the sanity of all involved, including their own!

 

[Bernice]

AngelC: My point here is that it's quite irresponsible to rephrase a question based on your own assumptions.
and
shadowdancer: I sort of understand what you are saying AngelC. I would shy away from this direct question and ask to look it from different angles. If her husband was ill, that is a very loaded and tricky question to even consider. Getting it wrong would open a terrible can of worms.

I echo these and other posts re. the rephrasing of the question. I have also been in a position whereby I might have asked such question - but I didn't/wouldn't.

But now that frelkins has so neatly captured the 'atmosphere' that surrounds Jodo, I'm wondering how he would have handled it if she had instantly recoiled, or aggresively denied it. Was he 'fishing' by throwing something so distasteful at her in a crowded room? Is this his style? I've seen some mediums work like that.

Bee

 

[frelkins]

I would imagine that if you go see Jodo, you have heard of his Mystic Cabaret and as aware of his mixture of serious scholarship, whacked therapy, surreal performance art, confrontation, sci-fi comics, and general anti-rational avant garde-ality.

Sometimes on this forum when I read people talk about Camoin/Jodo, they seem very interested in the mechanics of the method, but not really aware of what they are aligning with in general. . .tho' of course there's nothing wrong with picking and choosing various influences to form what works for you. . .

 

[MeeWah]

...This experience helped me add another layer to the process of helping Querents rephrase their questions, I'm sharing this in the hopes is useful for someone else.

Flavio: Thanks very much for the Jodorowsky vignette & his thought-provocative spin on the woman's question. First acquainted with Jodorowsky as a film-maker. The discovery his interest in Tarot explained in part his penchant for the surrealistic/unusual to startling imagery in films such as "El Topo". Whatever his leanings--freudian, sexist or other--I do not discount the possible spontaneity of his approach; nor the intepretation of those three cards (though curious if only the Major Arcana used). The original Yes/No question of itself tends to be fraught with ambiguity & the unspoken.

Based on the personal experiences as a reader, questions may involve more than that simply stated. & contain a querent's unexpressed thoughts to the inexpressible feelings. (& why sometimes, the results do not seem 'to match' a query.)

For example, a repeat client's query "Will I (ever) get married?" found to stem from not only that natural interest, but also from depression over general life conditions & feeling out of the loop. The years slipped away whilst focussed on building a career & providing for dependent relatives. The gradual realization the reluctance to compromise a set & relatively comfortable life style contributed to the few relationships in between--all discovered to be with 'unavailable' persons. I could have explained the latter sooner, but not until the client ready to listen.

 

[MeeWah]

Sinduction, Jodo *is* a therapist. He is a sort-of surrealist neo-Freudian analyst as well as an avant garde director. He has taken his analysis into something he calls "psychomagic" and "psychogeneology." He studied psychology at the university in Chile before he left for France; so he has formal therapy training; it's as a director that he is self-taught.

I strongly suggest everyone at least skim Jodo's Art of Tarot essay. There you can see, for example, that one of the meanings his gives for the Moon reversed is "penis envy" and "female rejection of the deveoping fetus." And of course one of the main criticisms of Freudians, Sinduction, is how sexist and anti-woman Sigmund was!

frelkins: Appreciate your taking the time to further elabourate on Jodorowsky's background. Very interesting as well as enlightening. Attests to the multi-layered there, too.

 

[Cerulean]

Hello Flavio...thanks for your post..

...I've been thinking about recent books that crossed my past...where I see Tarot of Marseilles and have been seeing 'different flavors' that the thinker/tarot author will be seeing in how they read the cards...

I'm not certain this gives the flavor of Jodorowsky very well, but this old link still works:

http://www.hotweird.com/jodorowsky/tarot.html

I'd like to open a thread related to this, because there are now different authors really do bring a different taste to such Marseilles tarots! Not all writers who appreciate Marseilles decks are giving the same take...I just picked up a mini-Camoin recently and had been thinking of looking into Jodorowsky's writings, among others.

Hope to hear from people soon on this...

Cerulean

 

[frelkins]

Hey Cerulean:

This is a very shortened version of Jodo's essay on the art of Tarot, which is about 40 pages long. Jodo gives about a page on each Major ("Arcanum"), and only a few phrases for the minors ("Colors"), maybe 2 for upright and 2 for reversed. He spends a medium amount of time on the courts (Honors).

He argues the Knight or Cavalier is the highest court. This is interesting: hae says the valet is the latent force, carrying doubt, they know only the simple way to follow. The queen possesses knowledge of her suit symbol, but doesn't share it, as she is preoccupied with knowing it. The king dominates his symbol, and shares it only with his realm, he does not project its energy. Thus the Knights are the moving, acting, projecting, forceful power of their suit, taking it into all the other realms, which makes them the most powerful court.

He strongly believes it is important to read for others and yourself too, saying you should practice every day, as you would with a musical instrument.