Knight/Cavalier of Batons - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

[firemaiden]

Hooves: I notice all the other horses shown on this thread have the same disposition of legs and hooves as this Austrian horseman, with the exception of the Vieville horse, who is leaping. The first thing that catches my eye about the Austrian horseman is that these horse's feet make a whole lot more sense than the others. It is almost as if, the others tried to copy them, but got them all twisted round. The disposition of these feet is elegant, as though it were a horse of particularly fine breeding.

Direction: Like the Payen, Conver, and Dodal, horse and rider are both facing in the same direction - that is back towards where they came from, however, the direction here is the reverse. They are traveling right, looking left, whereas the Dodal/Payen/Conver are traveling left, looking right.

Feather: Like the Vieville, both horse and rider have feathered caps, and like the Vieville, the horse bears something of an Asian air (in his eyes) but the rider doesn't!

Baton: Also like the Vieville, the cavalier holds not a cut-off bleeding branch, but a more refined object, rather more like a scepter, or the type of baton a king might hold. The Vieville's baton is much smaller and thin (stop it! no puns intended!) but seems topped with jewels, and is clearly in the same mode - however this is a much more magnificent instrument.

Bridle, Spurs and Stirrups: the horse is elegantly drawn, well in proportion and is handsomely decorated, and in great detail - one can make out a bridle, decorated with a star, a handsome sun with a face and pendants on the horses poitrine, and stirrups, and spurs.

That's a start...
Just for fun here is a link to learn about Medieval harness pendants

 

[le pendu]

What a fantastic card Firemaiden. I'd give anything to see other cards from this deck, but can't find any on the Yale site. I wonder if this is the sole survivor.

There are so many things I like about this card.

Like the Vieville, there is no title on this card. Personally, I feel that the oldest decks did not have titles, and suspect the early versions of the TdM probably did not either.

As you noted, also like the Vieville, the horse has a feather in it's headdress, personally, I believe that this existed on the early versions of the knights, and even wonder if the red dot on the Dodal near this area might be a lost memory of it.

I also like that the knight has spurs, something JMD alluded to earier about my personal feelings on the Knights. The spurs show up on many early decks, and reappear on some of the offshoot decks, I'll post an example soon... but I like the spurs and am glad to see them on this card.

The hat is also similar to the Vieville, in fact, it is interesting how much they agree about it. Neither has a wide brim like the regular TdM cards show, both have a feather sticking out the back.

When looking at the Sforza Castle card I see a large flower shape at the front of the horse, similar in proportion and position to the sun face on the Austria card.

When comparing it to the Dodal and Conver.. well.. I'm kind of lost for words! It is just so beautifully drawn, so elegant and detailed.

The thought that this card is over a hundred years older than the Vieville and two hundred years older than the Conver.. well... wow!

I suppose that I need to point out that I have no idea where this card came from, if it was ever a part of a tarot deck, and if so, if it is even part of a TdM deck. But regardless, to my eye, this looks very much like a long lost grandfather to the other decks we have been discussing so far.

best,
robert

 

[jmd]

It is indeed a fantastic card - le pendu and I were only but briefly discussing it recently, and quite frankly had not noted, even in the library's x8 rendition, the date thereon.

I see it as, however, 1535, not 1538:

The manner in which both the arm and the dress appears on this card suggests that the partial remnant of the card adjacent to the right is either a king or a queen, and that to the left possibly a page.

I shall include a brief note on this remnant as Queen in the appropriate thread.

 

[firemaiden]

Yes, it looks like 1535 to me too, that's what I meant to say

 

[Lillie]

Sorry if I should know this already...

But is the 'Austrian sheet' the same as the 'cary sheet', or is it something else?

Very sorry.
I have just found the answer on the 'historical research' board.

 

[le pendu]

Drago Knight of Batons

Here is the Knight of Batons from the deck by Giuseppe Drago.

As I mentioned in the thead on the King of Batons, I find this a very interesting deck. It is, I think, very similar to the Dodal, however, the lines are not confused when dealing with the front and feet of the horse.

Notice as well the four-petaled flower at the front of the horse like on the card found in Sforza Castle.

What, if anything, does this tell us?

This is a late deck... after the Dodal and the Conver... but maybe the creator was working with a model that did not share the line confusion found in the Dodal and Conver.

I wonder how he decided what should be there? What model did he use, or did he correct a Dodal or Conver style deck? Is it the same model that the Dodal is based on? Why would this late deck have more detail than the "standard" decks (Dodal and Conver) that came before it?

 

[le pendu]

Tarot of Paris Knight of Batons

Here is the Knight of Batons from the so-called Tarot of Paris, from the early 1600's:

Like much of this deck, the card is not directly related to the TdM, and is often considered a "fanciful tarot".

Like the Vieville and some other early decks, the rider wears spurs. Also like the Vieville, the horse has both front feet off the ground.

The Knight holds his club above his head... I've seen this in other decks and will see if I can find examples. Looks to me like he wears a helmet with a feather in the cap. I wonder what that is on the ground under the horse, under the rider's leg.. maybe just a rock?

best,
robert

 

[firemaiden]

Giuseppe Drago?? Yet another one I've never heard of!!!!

Bye the way, I think our Austrian Knight might have more writing on his horse's harness. I think I'd need a microscope to decipher it though!

 

[le pendu]

Zoni

Adding the Giacomo Zoni tarot:

Note the position of the foot as compared to the image from the Sforza Castle.

 

[prudence]

The Zoni is one of my favorites. The expression on the Sforza Castle card is very similar imo to the facial expressions in the Zoni deck, one of the reasons I like it so much.