Le Diable (Devil) card's minion's triple nipple on the Conver

[jmd]

A number of threads, including the very first Marseille thread on this card - XV Le Diable - have now mentioned that the Conver (attached - as well as some later versions, such as the Camoin) have a triple nipple on one of the smaller figures.

Mention has also been made that this is in reference to Masonry. I find that somewhat astounding, and simply do not agree.

There is a far more readily manifest explanation for this, and one that was also considered a sign of someone's pact with the Devil during former times: multiple nipples showed from whence it fed - nothing Masonic, but rather a clear symbolic depiction as to what was in popular thought with regards to such connections at the time of this deck's creation.

I realise that J-C Flornoy's sites mention this connection, but at this stage, as when I first read it when first posted on his site, simply remain unconvinced by the assertion.

 

[Fulgour]

Right Imp >U< Left Imp = Encoding of Degrees?

XV Le Diable = Samekh = Sagittarius =
The Exaltation of the South Lunar Node

Image: Lunar Nodes, Footsteps in the Soul's Journey

StudyWorks! Online: Predicting a Solar Eclipse

For a solar eclipse to occur, the Sun must be near a nodal point
of the Moon’s orbital path. A node is where the orbit of the Moon
around the Earth crosses the apparent orbit of the Sun around
the Earth. If the Sun is within 16 degrees of the node then a solar
eclipse of some kind will occur somewhere. And if it is within 10
degrees of the node then a total or annular eclipse will occur.
© 2004 Mathsoft Engineering & Education, Inc.

 

[Tarotphelia]

I hate to shock you further jmd, but as you probably already know, the 3rd nipple was thought to be the devil's mark and something to be looked for on people to see if they were a witch. Masonry is said to be in its' most secret aspect ,(and its' foundation ) , the organization that witchcraft retreated into when it was no longer safe to be outwardly a witch . Secrets hidden in plain sight .

 

[jmd]

The 'Devil's mark' is what I was in part referring to, Dark Inquisitor.

However, I do not understand the sense in which you refer to Masonry in which witchcraft 'retreated' into...

 

[Tarotphelia]

The 'Devil's mark' is what I was in part referring to, Dark Inquisitor.

That's why I said you already knew - I was just clarifying for other readers.

However, I do not understand the sense in which you refer to Masonry in which witchcraft 'retreated' into...

Some say Masonry was created as a cover society for witchcraft. Something the average member would not be aware of or told about.

 

[jmd]

Thank you for the explanatory note.

Personally, I do not see why any of either the Compagnonage in France or Germany, or the rise of Freemasonry in the UK (interestingly a significant rise following the demise of Catholic monasteries there, rather than witchcraft persecutions), would have been useful in 'hiding' witchcraft.

The rituals - both modern and more ancient, but especially the further one goes back, the stronger this is - are based heavily on Christian symbolic and allegorical reference (often more on the old testament, and, symbolically, on the building of King Solomon's Temple - it is, after all, a masonic fraternity).

I realise that many claims have been made by many who take here and there snippets of either information or dis-information, but as both a Freemason and someone who also values the incredible amount of historical research undertaken in especially the last twenty years, I simply find the claim just a tad unlikely.

Still, it is worth bringing to both attention and discussion... and therefore thank you indeed! Perhaps others will be able to present grounds for the claims made by Jean-Claude Flornoy, and perhaps some of these are based precisely on a similar point to that which you raise.

 

[Tarotphelia]

A google search on "masonry witchcraft " yields some 44,500 hits , a good deal of which seem to be rather hysterical Christian denunciations of masonry as witchcraft related. I don't suppose it would be simple to get to the bottom of it .

 

[smleite]

The Templar knights (the Order of the Temple) were also accused of practices of witchcraft, and worshiping the Devil. It seems to be the most obvious (and still very dangerous) accusation to be made, when you want to ruin the reputation of any association that includes a “secret” side. This is an issue that would lead us far…

 

[rox]

More language of the birds?

One way of approaching this question could lie in the French language itself. An epithet for Freemasons is the "frères trois points" or three-dot brothers. Conver's choice in putting the three dots on the female figure can be read as "freemasonry is a she-devil", or "diablesse". A "diablesse" in French is roughly a seductive woman who is sure to disappoint you. Did Conver have some kind of run-in with the Freemasons of his time? If we think it possible that Conver was a Jew from Germany, and we know they didn't accept Jews, it could be that he is making a personal remark expressing disappointment or retaliation. Perhaps he knew the Freemasons weren't into witchcraft, and wasn't even proposing they were. If this hypothesis is worthy of consideration, can we imagine that people in Conver's time were able (as we are not) to home directly in on his language-based image and understand it?

 

[jmd]

If the Conver had been created 120 years later than it has, I would perhaps tend to agree that there could indeed be an anti-masonic allusion.

Though possible that it was in (semi-) popular usage beforehand, I had thought that the term was a construct by Leo Taxil (Gabriel-Antoine Jogand-Pagès) writing anti-masonic literature in the late 19th century. And that a consequence of that book (by the same name, if I recall my masonic historical reading) the term stuck.

Perhaps, however, the term was indeed in usage more than a century earlier.

'Conver', of course, could easily have been a term used for the cardmaker (converted Jews were commonly termed 'Converso', and numerous other cardmakers from the epoch seem to also hint at meanings that may or may not have significance: Payen, Hebreo, Vieville, etc).

To return to the three nipples, however, and though it seems to mimic anti-masonic and anti-Templar imagery from later times (even with the cable-tow around their necks, and the high central Devil figure in the centre), it would be interesting to note whether there is any evidence for the term 'frères trois points' in the mid-18th century.