Making the Transition from RWS to Marseilles decks

[Moongold]

I support firemaide's comments about the depths possible in the Marseilles.

Learning the Marseile has taught me to look at what is actually in the cards in a way that I have not done so thoroughly before.

Looking at patterns and shapes in the pips is new to me as well. Fascinating stuff.

 

[tmgrl2]

Fortunately, I had about the same amount of experience with the RWS as TdM...NONE.

I do love the Tarot de Marseille, though. Ditto to much of what everyone has said...

I love my books in French, especially, Sedillot and Klea. Jodo and Hadar's books, I find a bit more leaning towards their own takes...but I like to check out what they say.

But most of all, I am learning to focus on the numbers, the patterns, the meanings of the suits themselves in relation to the numbers.

I agree with fm and Maria...try out the How May it be Read threads...I am committed to working through all 78. I am learning so much from everyone's posts there.

Here is the link to the threads...scroll down to find the How May it Be Read links up so far:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31857

Also, the whole Table of Contents for Marseille contains all kinds of wonderful links and discussions in English. I have learned more here at AT, than I have from books. I tend to look up cards in some of the books I have in French, but really rely on the input of others here equally.



Also the readings in Let's Marseille...I haven't been involved with them lately but they seem to be going along beautifully.

terri

 

[Moongold]

I haven't time now (will be late for work if I don't get cracking soon) to explore this further but I was wondering this morning, in relation to astrology, how knowledge evolves and what gives credibility to the various schools of thought in both tarot and astrology.

There are many different schools of thought and we seem here to have spent a lot of time arguing about this, especially in terms of Tarot. There are definite divisions about it here, augmented by the various preferences and scholarship of strong personalities here.

The more discussion we have, the more opinions and thoughts the better it is! The atmosphere at Aeclectic and the excitement and freedom of discussion and discovery is tangibly different. I feel that people are experiencing, in terms of the Marseille anyway, some of the joy that can come from shared discovery and learning.

 

[Sophie]

I love my books in French, especially, Sedillot and Klea. Jodo and Hadar's books, I find a bit more leaning towards their own takes...but I like to check out what they say.

I like Sedillot, a good middle-of-the-road author and pretty clear (although I don't agree with some of her numerological explanations). I am finding less in her book than in Jodo, but that's my temperament, I imagine.
As for Jodo's own takes - undoubtedly, that's where he is so fresh and stimulating - but he is also well-reasearched on many aspects (incuding on the pips related to islamic art, and therefore meaningful, btw).

 

[Aoife]

For me, much depends on the nature of the querent.

For a straight, predictive reading with limited discussion between the querent and myself, TdM is best.... not least because the historic renditions of death and the devil are less scary and no bleeding hearts or pinioned bodies to explain and reframe. But those sorts of readings tend to allow the querent to be a passive recipient, and hence are of lesser value.

So... if I want a reading to be about self empowerment I need to determine which style will best encourage an interactive process. My reading then provides the triggers for the querent to make their own connections.

Those querents who respond best to detailed visual imagery tend to find scenic pips better for engaging their inner teacher.

Those querents who are well-versed in exploration through verbal metaphor and/or have a well developed imaginative ability tend to get a richer, deeper, more personal experience with TdM.

 

[Sophie]

For me, much depends on the nature of the querent.

Those querents who respond best to detailed visual imagery tend to find scenic pips better for engaging their inner teacher.

Those querents who are well-versed in exploration through verbal metaphor and/or have a well developed imaginative ability tend to get a richer, deeper, more personal experience with TdM.

I'd never really thought of it that way. I suppose I do choose, but not quite so consciously. I know that I have been using the Tarot of Prague with people who are sensitive to beauty, history and art, and they really respond to it. I had to laugh once, though: my sister looked at the the King of wands in a reading, and said immediately - "that's my husband!". And her husband does have the same kind of expression, though in character he is probably more of a King of Swords.

What I have found myself doing - for example on this board - is choosing between types of decks (not that I have a huge collection!) depending on the question asked and what I perceive of the sensibility of the person involved. That includes between different types of Marseille decks.

Thanks, Aoife! Your explanation makes a lot of sense!

 

[Moongold]

I am very attracted to the TdM- not least because I love history and the Middle Ages. I also am absolutely drawn to those symbols - so direct - on the cards. But I have felt the impact of symbol in other decks, and in the Mythic deck, I feel the impact of both symbol and myth. What I am finding, is that my study of Marseille (or rather the attention I pay to the cards in the tarot de Marseille) is helping me in my reading of other decks, which I didn't expect.

I have found this too. At first I wondered whether I would naturally have begun to look at the cards differently or whether it is a consequence of my work with the Marseille. I do pay much more attention to the iconology now and the Marseille has uncovered the less than rigorous foundations of some modern numerology.

Like you also, I find the beautiful directness of the Marseille images compelling.

I am still drawn to other decks of course, particularly the RWS itself and the Ancient Egyptian. I just bought the Fey as well .

 

[Sophie]

I have found this too. At first I wondered whether I would naturally have begun to look at the cards differently or whether it is a consequence of my work with the Marseille. I do pay much more attention to the iconology now and the Marseille has uncovered the less than rigorous foundations of some modern numerology.

Like you also, I find the beautiful directness of the Marseille images compelling.

I am still drawn to other decks of course, particularly the RWS itself and the Ancient Egyptian. I just bought the Fey as well .

And I just bought the Waking the Wild Spirit, on the recommendation of a known Marseille-lover on this forum
Now that's taking the off-beat path

I'm not sure what modern numerology is founded on - it seems a bit fanciful to me, compared to the Pythagorean, say. Bu I've not studied it in detail. The trouble is, when you want to use numbers (after all the cards are numbered), then numerology is important, and if its intellectual foundations don't convince you then...
...well, there are still the pictures.

 

[firemaiden]

But I would say that the classical music lover, or the speed-metal lover (whatever that is) should respect - in words and deeds - the existence and the validity of each other's choice. No-one can make you like or use RWS - so be it. Some people will never want to use the Tarot de Marseille, so be it too.

To me, the Marseille is not "pretty". It is sorely lacking in mermaids and fairies.... yet, Diana and jmd have indeed brought me for one, to appreciating the Marseille, and I have a feeling there are my others on this forum have come to appreciate the Marseille, who might never otherwise have given it the time of day, thanks to their efforts. There was a time when the Marseille was only a footnote on this forum, now it is an avalanche.

Likewise, I shall never stop passionately working to bring the beauty of classical music to those who haven't yet come to appreciate it. I will always believe that those who shun it, do so only because they are uninitiated. I do not think it is a disrespect toward others to believe that a thing of beauty should be shared. To the degree in which people's tastes are not only a product of their individual choices, but also defined by their environment, those tastes can be given new choices in new environments.

 

[Sophie]

Diana and jmd have indeed brought me, and many others to liking the Marseille. Many many people on this forum have come to appreciate the Marseille, who might never otherwise have given it the time of day. It's not "pretty". There was a time when the Marseille was only a footnote on this forum, now it is an avalanche.

Likewise, I shall never stop passionately working to bring the love of classical music to those who haven't yet come to appreciate it. I will always believe that those who shun it, do so only because they are uninitiated. I do not think it is disrespect toward others to believe that a thing of beauty should be shared.

I agree with you, firemaiden. I don't think that sharing what you love with passion, and hoping the other will love it too, is disrespect. Any more than I believe that sharing opinions and thoughts on a topic, which might be the opposite of what someone else thinks, is disrespectful. The only disrespect would be to say - "your choice, opinion, etc. is rubbish, mine's the only valid", which you do not do.

It is thanks ot the various passions on this forum that I am extending my interests and knowledge so much. Just now I've been reading the webpages of Michael Hurst that were linked on this forum and recommended by Rusty Neon. Another day might have me looking at sacred geometry, and yet another at 19th century occult history. I barely knew the beautiful early Italian cards (I'd only ever seen a poor reproduction of the Visconti-Sforza and had some memory from a book of Tarot being born in Italy). In my late teens and twenties I spent much of my time studying history - medieval and Renaissance- but had rarely come across the Tarot (universities being the orthodox institutions they are). Now, here, I am renewing, in different forms - my early love as well as discovering new areas of interest.

From historical, to metaphysical, from allegorical to looking at ways of thinking, other people's interests and passions are opening a new world to me. It's a huge adventure! It goes via the Tarot the Marseille, but not exculsively. At some point in the future, I should like to look more closely at the Italian decks, and at naïbis cards. I approach the subject with an open mind. E.g. we know that the earliest surviving deck is Italian, created by Bembo. But what did he base his idea on? Were there packs before that didn't survive? And what is the link between these artistic play-decks, and the Tarot de Marseille's very different symbolism? Are we looking at the representation of a historical world-view (Michael Hurst's contention), the use of common allegorical figures for nothing more serious than a card game (Michael Dummett's opinion), or are we looking at a series of images that represent a spiritual path? And if so, which path?

And does it matter? Should history determine how we, now, use anything? Didn't our Medieval ancestors reuse and reinterpret Ancient images and texts to fit their purposes? (e.g. the Song of Songs, Sophia, the virtues).

In the sense that I am enjoying discovering these different strands of thought and research, Tarot is still a game to me. But it is also a spiritual tool, a tool for divination, for meditation, for free association, for reflection...

Whether RWS, Marseille, Visconti or Fey, there is no end to what use we can put this mysterious wicked pack of cards!