Mark Filipas - The Pasteboard Masquerade

venicebard

Rosanne said:
If it jerks the mind to think of a statement that was pertinent at the time- like emblems of the age, then I would agree with the sequence. The mouth in the sky does not give me enough order to see the sequence. I will plod on, and prod you from time to time. ~Rosanne
Mouth-and-tongue aimed 'on high'? Did not the sky stand for the sacred par excellence?

Look (briefly): voiced right, unvoiced left, with either (Keltic) L-N-F-S-H or (Semitic) lamedh-nun-samekh-tzaddi-cheyt going out (up) the tongue and back and the seven that were originally vowels forming the tongue-root (its bottom half), vav's teat without (left) and yod's seed within (right) -- just as English has you (rimes with "oo" or vav) and me (rimes with "ee" or yod), that is, vav-as-vowel without and yod-as-vowel within.

Then the doubles show the sounds on the lip on the lip, those in the gullet in the gullet, etc. M's "mm" sweetness posited above (muin-vine's 'sour' grapes Aesop's fox failed to reach) is the sweetness to which we all (or most of us) aspire.
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
YchYD – SOLITARY ONE; YShYMVN -DESERT, SOLITARY, EREMITE.

Kwaw

To anticipate a possible objection to the above, YSHYMVN (H3452) which I couldn't find in Jastrow, is defined in Brown-Driver-Briggs as waste, wilderness; however in the KJV at least it is also translated as desert (for example Psalms 78:40) and as solitary (for example Psalms 107:4). This Hebrew word is translated by among a couple of other words, eremos (G2048] in the Greek translation. Eremos is the word from which eremite, hermit is derived (originating as a term for solitary desert dwellers).

Kwaw
 

Pagan X

Thought you folks would find this interesting:

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/yetsira/sy_planetaryattributions.html

The attribution of planets in the Sefer Yetzirah has not been consistent between different manuscripts of the SY.

Hebrew Letter / Planetary Attributions in the Sepher Yetsira, Shiur Komah and Other Sources

Version/Letter Bayt Ghimmel Dallet Kaf Pay Raysh Tav
Suares Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Work of the Chariot Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Short Version Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Long Version Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Long Ver Recap Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Saadia Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Zohar Moon Mars Sun Saturn Jupiter Venus Mercury
Gra Moon Mars Sun Venus Mercury Saturn Jupiter
Donash Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Shiur Komah Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Golden Dawn Mercury Moon Venus Jupiter Mars Sun Saturn
GD Tarot HPriestess EmpressEmperor Force Star Judgement Universe
Filipas Tarot HPriestess Empress emperor Strength Star Judgement Fool

Adapted from Aryeh Kaplan, Sepher Yetsira, 1990 and other sources
 

kwaw

Pagan X said:
Thought you folks would find this interesting:

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/yetsira/sy_planetaryattributions.html

The attribution of planets in the Sefer Yetzirah has not been consistent between different manuscripts of the SY.

Hebrew Letter / Planetary Attributions in the Sepher Yetsira, Shiur Komah and Other Sources

Version/Letter Bayt Ghimmel Dallet Kaf Pay Raysh Tav
Suares Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Work of the Chariot Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Short Version Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Long Version Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Long Ver Recap Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Saadia Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Zohar Moon Mars Sun Saturn Jupiter Venus Mercury
Gra Moon Mars Sun Venus Mercury Saturn Jupiter
Donash Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon
Shiur Komah Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon

Adapted from Aryeh Kaplan, Sepher Yetsira, 1990 and other sources

Versions of the SY all remarkably consistent - the oldest version used the chaldean order and that is the most common through the different versions. The zohar is not the SY and yes had a different order to the SY, the Gra 'rectified' variations to come up with a completely different one again :)

The chaldean order suits me fine.

Kwaw

ps. the GD tarot listing in the table is wrong it should be

magician hp empress WoF tower sun universe

Filiapas is lexicon based and does not reference kabbalistic/planetary attributions.
 

Pagan X

Even if the SY orders are considered consistent, the Golden Dawn did not follow them...nor the order of the Zohar. I think it's interesting to establish that, to demonstrate that "occult" orderings based on assigning cards to the Hebrew Alphabet are arbritrary and not derived from jewish mysticism.

Ah,. My bad, that's Levi's ordering, which was the ordering used by Mathers before reordering:

http://www.esotericgoldendawn.com/mysteries_tarot_tarotmathers.htm

Here is a more detailed description of the Golden Dawn reordering, and a hypothesis of a possible source:

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/tarot/RevivedTarot/traditionaltarot.html

"It appears that Mathers may have imported four planetary attributions from a non-Western (Hindu) system into the "secret" Golden Dawn attributions and then shuffled the remaining three (Sun, Jupiter and Mars) from the same system.

Nineteenth Century western occult researchers realized that the Strength/Justice transposition is not the only "obvious" symbolic problem in the Tarot Major Trumps. The Magician, with its Hermetic connections, the High Priestess with the Moon at her feet, the Empress with Venus on her shield, the Sun and the Tower all convey specific astrological connotations that presented problems equal to the scales and the lion. When presented with the problem of changing the order of the cards or changing the meaning of the source text, Mathers and the Golden Dawn followers chose the latter and re-assigned seven planets from their actual positions (as specified in the Sepher Yetsira).

Hulse's and Heidrick's view, rationalizing changing the Hebrew and classical planetary assignments:

The seven double letters, assigned to the seven planets, are analyzed next. This symbol set is the most blinded of all attributes in the Sepher Yetsira. Mathers felt that the Tarot offered the pictorial key to clarify which planet should be governed by each of the seven double letters. Hulse, 1996, p.19 .


"These applications of the planets to the double letters are the most highly corrupted matter in existing manuscripts of the "Sepher Yetzirah", as is noted further below. No definitive text exists in this matter." -- Heidrick

This was true in the case of the Double letters, where one of several natural methods of assignment in the "Yetzirah" was passed over to provide a better match between the Double Letters and the planets to work with Tarot Trumps. The other methods do not work as well with the G.'. D.'. Tarot-Astrological system, and they are therefore excluded from "Liber 777". Heidrick

Here we have the traditional Hebrew assignments of the Sepher Yetsira "passed over" in favor the Golden-Dawn system because they "do not work as well" with the traditional tarot placements rationalized by the "G.'. D.'. Tarot-Astrological system."

It is false that "no definitive texts exists in this matter." In fact, there is total agreement on the planetary attributions of the seven doubles until the late Lurianic-influenced 18th century "Gra" version.

The previous change, Strength/Justice, restored the Yetziratic attributions to the primary symbols, scales/Libra, lion/Leo. Why decide now that it is the source, the Sepher Yetsira, that is blinded, and not the Tarot cards, or their interpreters?

The only cards that don't iconically carry their astrological symbolism, the Fool, the World and the Wheel, use equally obvious symbolism for their true numerical positions, one, two and three in the sequence of initial structuration.

The Golden Dawn could have used Westcott's or Stenring's Gra translation, but they would have had to move seven trumps, and apparently the challenge made them opt for telling the Jews their Sepher Yetsira was incorrect about its own alphabetical/astrological correspondences. "

I put Filipas ordering up for the sake of comparison.
 

kwaw

Pagan X said:
Even if the SY orders are considered consistent, the Golden Dawn did not follow them...

True, and I have never fully understood the rationalisation for the order they did settle on, one of the reasons I have never followed their attributions with pre-GD decks.

Nineteenth Century western occult researchers realized that the Strength/Justice transposition is not the only "obvious" symbolic problem in the Tarot Major Trumps. The Magician, with its Hermetic connections, the High Priestess with the Moon at her feet, the Empress with Venus on her shield, the Sun and the Tower all convey specific astrological connotations that presented problems equal to the scales and the lion.

When and in which decks did the popesse appear with the moon at her feet, or the Empress with Venus on her shield? What demonstrates any obvious lunar or venusian symbolism of these cards in any of the historical decks?

When presented with the problem of changing the order of the cards or changing the meaning of the source text, Mathers and the Golden Dawn followers chose the latter and re-assigned seven planets from their actual positions (as specified in the Sepher Yetsira).

And found authority for doing so in the fact that Jewish authorities had also felt free to 'rectify' the attributions according to differing considerations. In particular the Gra changed the attributions, nonetheless his version remains the 'authoritive' or most popularly followed version in modern Jewish Kabbalah.

It is false that "no definitive texts exists in this matter." In fact, there is total agreement on the planetary attributions of the seven doubles until the late Lurianic-influenced 18th century "Gra" version.

I am not sure if it was total, but it [the so called 'chaldean order'] certainly seems to have been the most consistent prior to the Gra, and the one that makes most historical sense to me, and is the one I use.

The only cards that don't iconically carry their astrological symbolism, the Fool, the World and the Wheel, use equally obvious symbolism for their true numerical positions, one, two and three in the sequence of initial structuration.

Post GD decks may show obvious astrological symbolism, such as the symbol of venus on the Empress shield; which of the cards in which of the historical decks showed 'obvious astrological symbolism'.

The Golden Dawn could have used Westcott's or Stenring's Gra translation

Several spanish 20th century deck creators have used the Gra variation [based upon Westcotte sources according to decker/dummet, although I am not sure what is their basis for saying so].


and apparently the challenge made them opt for telling the Jews their Sepher Yetsira was incorrect about its own alphabetical/astrological correspondences.

There were variations in Jewish sources too, most notably the Gra, whose variation forms the foundation for modern Jewish Kabbalah. So it appears that one of the most notabe Jewish scholars agreed with the GD that the SY was incorrect in its double letter/planetary attributions. Personally I disagree, I think the chaldean order has a high probability of being the original proposed ordering and that is the one I retain.

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

How about for us plodders- along, lets say the Chaldean order is taken from Earth as from the slowest planet to the the fastest and that would be
Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon
or remembered by the days of the week as
Saturday, Thursday,Tuesday,Sunday,Friday,Wednesday,Monday.
Now I personally like how I see the planets from earth (their distance) so I like Saturn,Jupiter,Mars,Sun,Venus,Mercury and the Moon- but I did not design TdM :D
Nor did the Golden Dawn who did some mental gymnastics to get the 7 planets in the order of the 7 colours of the rainbow. They did it like this- take The planetary colours and affix the planets and arrange them in the order of the solar spectrum and then bend up the series into a ring and make the chain into a Heptagram, and turn the whole about until you get the two ends of the series to meet at the Eastern point, now you will have this -
Violet—Jupiter, Indigo—Saturn, Blue—Moon,
Green—Venus, Yellow—Mercury, Orange—Sun, Red—Mars.
~Rosanne
 

kwaw

Pagan X said:
Here we have the traditional Hebrew assignments of the Sepher Yetsira "passed over" in favor the Golden-Dawn system because they "do not work as well" with the traditional tarot placements rationalized by the "G.'. D.'. Tarot-Astrological system."

Far too much emphasis on GD bashing for my liking, replacing propoposal and argument with ad hominem attack. The GD weren't the only or the first to alter the planet to letter attributions; such variations were made by the French schools too and can be found among the Jewish schools of kabbalah as well. To indulge in fanciful speculations as to the why they made the decisions they did and then knock it down is typical straw man argument.

So instead of indulging their ad hominem and straw man attacks, what do you / we think of the sites own 'solution'? {Perhaps this needs a new thread, getting very much off topic}.

Kwaw
 

kwaw

Rosanne said:
Nor did the Golden Dawn who did some mental gymnastics to get the 7 planets in the order of the 7 colours of the rainbow. They did it like this- take The planetary colours and affix the planets and arrange them in the order of the solar spectrum and then bend up the series into a ring and make the chain into a Heptagram, and turn the whole about until you get the two ends of the series to meet at the Eastern point, now you will have this -
Violet—Jupiter, Indigo—Saturn, Blue—Moon,
Green—Venus, Yellow—Mercury, Orange—Sun, Red—Mars.

Sorry Rosanne don't follow, how does this match up with the GD mercury, moon, venus, jupiter, mars, sun, saturn order?

Kwaw
 

Pagan X

I personally don't find the astrological attributions to be very convincing, in any order, based on the card images of the 1400's.

The Chariot, for example, is depicted as the goddess Venus in a triumphal cart, so, I think Chariot ought to be Venus.

The Hermit is the image of Saturn (or Chronos) with an hourglass, so the Hermit should be Saturn.

Moon should be Moon. Sun should be Sun.

That there were decks in existence with the twelve signs as the twelve signs indicates to me that it's not likely that our Tarot trumps were meant to portray the twelve signs or the planets.

That there were several different orderings of the Trumps in play regionally also serves as evidence that they were not designed as Cabalistic teaching aids.

That our Hermetic sources of the period make no mention of Tarot, but do describe astrology, numerology, and geomancy; indicates to me that Tarot trumps were not considered bearing occult significance.

I do find Filipas hypothesis more plausible; perhaps, at a point later than the 1400's but before the Marseille Order was enforced by decree (and I have to find the reference for that) a Jewish printer came up with the idea of making an alphabet card game, or using the alphabet as a mnemonic for remembering trump order, and changed the Trump designs accordingly. Saturn becomes the Hermit. Venus no longer rides in the Chariot. Jewish players have an advantage over non-Jews because they have an easier time of remembering the trump order. What a thought: it's a system of marking the cards.

Tarot is a bit of a Carnival on pasteboard and I think it's quite possible that the "naked tarots" with their dangly male bits were for tavern play; a Female Pope is a jibe at the Church; and the Devil sure looks like he is having fun.

Perhaps there was an oral tradition of the Hebrew alphabet being connected with the Trumps--maybe among the fraternity of professional gamblers. It no longer conveyed an advantage after the trumps were numbered, so it was no longer given attention by card players in the main. This gets picked up by occultists, and away we go.