Mary-El: Zodiac Sign Confusion

[Elendil]

The Ace of Swords in this deck features an eagle (and is referred to as exalted Scorpio - a water sign). The Ace of Cups features 'the angel of Aquarius' (an Air sign). In the accompanying book Marie confirms that Swords are assigned to the element of AIR and Cups to the element of WATER. So what is going on here? Can anyone explain? Have I misunderstood something?

ETA: Is this connected with the fact that on The Hierophant in Crowley's Thoth deck the positions of the eagle and man/angel have been 'switched'? IIRC on that card the eagle is in the 'AIR position' and the man/angel is in the 'WATER position'. All the same it doesn't change the commentary in Marie's book where she clearly identifies Scorpio as the marker for AIR and Aquarius as the marker for WATER in her Aces.

 

[lilangel09]

I don't know how she assigned these astrologically either. In astrology, Aquarius is Air and Scorpio is water, period. I get that an eagle may be associated with air and Aquarius with water for obvious reasons, but if it said in the book she put eagle to represent Scorpio then goes on to say Ace of Swords is air, I would be very confused as well. I'd just ignore what the book said and go with what element I felt the card/suit in that deck represented.

Either she was mistaken, she felt Scorpio was better associated with Air and Aquarius was Water, or she has some unspoken reasoning for assigning the cards the way she did.

I would understand if she felt the Water signs represented Swords better, but I don't understand why she would say the Swords are associated with Air instead of Water when she uses a Water sign to represent Ace of Swords, unless she felt Scorpio represented Air better.

 

[Elendil]

I would understand if she felt the Water signs represented Swords better, but I don't understand why she would say the Swords are associated with Air instead of Water when she uses a Water sign to represent Ace of Swords, unless she felt Scorpio represented Air better.

Yes. Confusion reigns...
Throughout her description of the Ace of Swords she maintains the assignment of the suit to AIR and maintains the references to Scorpio - and she emphasises that the angel on the Ace of Cups is a representation of Aquarius - but that the suit is assigned to WATER. There is no explanation for the switch.


Is anyone else able to explain the reasoning behind this?

 

[velvetina]

doesn't help much but eagles do have an astrological association with Scorpio.....can't remember exactly why as it is a few years since I studied astrology

 

[Grigori]

Scorpio has three forms, the Scorpion is the lowest form, the Snake is its medium and the Eagle is its highest form. So the Eagle as a symbol of Scorpio is a very old and well known association. It demonstrates the highest aspects of Scorpio, rather than its lower baser attributes. I don't yet have the Mary-El, but this may be why she is referring to the Eagle on the Ace of Swords as exalted Scorpio as the Eagle is a symbol of exalted Scorpio. This is maybe different than attributed the Ace of Swords to Scorpio directly, but I don't know really without reading the book. The Man/Angel of Aquarius has long been a water bearer also, so this cross over is a common one. Perhaps her usage is related to Crowley's idea that in the new Aeon the Man/Angel has become the symbol for Scorpio and the Eagle the symbol for Aquarius, though he also uses the older attributions on other cards.

 

[Elendil]

Perhaps her usage is related to Crowley's idea that in the new Aeon the Man/Angel has become the symbol for Scorpio and the Eagle the symbol for Aquarius, though he also uses the older attributions on other cards.

Thanks for that Grigori. I thought I recalled a 'switch' in the Thoth deck...and also recalled that the switch was not entirely consistent.

It's not so much the switch that bothers me, it is the muddled referencing in the book (Eagle = exalted Scorpio = AIR : Man/Angel = Aquarius = WATER).

 

[Grigori]

The cards themselves seen clear, with the glyph for Water appearing on the Angel in the Ace of Cups, and the glyph for Air on the Eagle of the Ace of Swords. So perhaps a typo in the book.

 

[Eyebright]

Ive just read a review of the Mary-El here and the reviewer mentions something that may be of relevance...

"She assigns the element Air to the sign Scorpio (a Water sign) and the element Water to the sign Aquarius (an Air sign). White explains: "I did not hinge the elements of this Tarot onto Babylonian stars from the Aeon of Aries but on the more ancient Sumerian stars from the previous Aeon of Taurus, that is, during this 2,100 year period when the Sun rose on the Vernal Equinox, it rose in Taurus. When it rose on the Summer Solstice it rose in Leo. When it rose in the Autumnal Equinox it rose in Scorpio. When it rose in the Winter Solstice, it rose in Aquarius." The Bull, Lion, Eagle (the old symbol for Scorpio) and Angel are the basis of the four suits in this Tarot."

Don't know if that is of any help Elendil

 

[Elendil]

Don't know if that is of any help Elendil

That helps heaps. Thanks!

ETA: If only I had read the whole book and got to the section on astrology and the court cards!

 

[Eyebright]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing lol!