Minchiate elements

[BrightEye]

I'm trying to figure out a way to read the Minchiate elements, particularly in relation to the zodiac signs, which are also related to elements. Kilted Kat suggested that the elements are more cardinal than the cardinal zodiac signs, which makes good sense. But I still have a hard time figuring out the actuality of this idea.

Let's say water, for example. The card shows a ship at sea and a whale spouting water in the foreground. How could that be read?

 

[Le Fanu]

Ive been thinking about this subject recently. Ive often used an "edited" version of the Minchiate which seems a bit silly, really. I would like to learn how to use the whole deck. What's the point of suppressing elements?

I suppose I would read the elements as an excess of that element in a situation, i.e water; an excess of the emotional, not enough rationale. Something like that. But that's just me.

It would be nice to get some serious posts going about how to read the Minchiate, don't you think? Ive just received my Meneghello versions and fallen in love with this deck all over again and would love to be able to read it well, and I know I can't "do" study groups as that systematic way of working through cards just isn't me, and I don't have that committment (especially with 97 cards). I prefer to toss ideas out, hear others' thought and when it comes down to specific details of a card, look at it on my terms. But I do miss a more general discussion of this deck, like the one you propose here about the elements...

It's astrology which is the problem for me. I have this block with astrology and just can't commit any of it to memory. That's going to be my problem with this deck. What on earth do you do with the astrological cards? memorise "good points/ bad points" of a Capricorn and somehow work it into a reading?

 

[firecatpickles]

I look at the myths attributed to the zodiac signs and the houses that the signs rule.

 

[sapienza]

I guess I'm fortunate to have a pretty solid understanding of Astrology and so I basically do what Kilted Kat does in a way. My problem with this deck is that in a regular tarot deck I use the astrological signs for the court cards, so in this deck it's kind of astrology overkill I'm very new to the Minchiate to I'm still trying to feel my was as to how to read the cards. I've got Brian Williams book but haven't had the chance to sit down and read any of it yet. But I do remember you saying it didn't help you much Le Fanu.

Let's say water, for example. The card shows a ship at sea and a whale spouting water in the foreground. How could that be read?

It does seem to have a sense of overwhelming emotions doesn't it? Like riding the waves of emotion, or an emotional outburst. But then IF you associate elements to the signs, then maybe they are overlapping with the Aces. Perhaps that's why the tarot decks got rid of these extra cards.....who knows?

I also agree that some more discussion about the Minchate decks would be great.

 

[BrightEye]

Thanks for posting in my thread! Yes, we should get some type of discussion going, but like Le Fanu I can't do study groups. Too much hard work. But I'm happy to have higgledy-piggledy threads like this one.

Water. Overwhelming emotions. Cancer would follow on from that (in my way of reading) because Cancer is the cardinal sign of water. Cancers are emotional, but they are also crustaceans, so they don't show it so much. I'm not sure how to read fixed and mutable signs. Anyone?

With the zodiac, I tend to go by personality traits.

 

[Le Fanu]

I look at the myths attributed to the zodiac signs and the houses that the signs rule.

OK.. let me think about that... Houses that the signs rule.. I think I can lay my hands on a book which is going to help me with this... But myths attributed to zodiac signs? This intrigues me. What exactly do you mean?

Astrology is a kind of parallel, impenetrable universe for me. How lucky you are sapienza, to have a grounding in this. I feel more and more that my astrological knowledge is inadequate for the decks I like (Minchiate, Thoth, Liber T). I have a basic, astrological primer which I should try and learn more. (Don't laugh) it's the Astrological Directory by Annie Lionnet. It's just that anything more advanced loses me. And astrology doesn't naturally intrigue me as much as tarot images. It's tarot I want to learn!

I'm very new to the Minchiate to I'm still trying to feel my way as to how to read the cards. I've got Brian Williams book but haven't had the chance to sit down and read any of it yet. But I do remember you saying it didn't help you much Le Fanu

Ive never got anything from Williams' book, but then I was familiar with his references. I studied Medieval/Renaissance art for years so I have a lot of the stuff and symbolism which he talks about (and which is handy for the Minchiate), but basically his approach is iconographic/ history of art. And for the cards which really intrigue (zodiac and elements), I find the info a bit scant. He basically goes through character traits for the zodiac cards, while the info for the elements cards is very scant.

I can see a way into the elements, though. Funny Sapienza, you see them as somehow similar to the Aces. I don't; for me the Aces are more seeds, the burgeoning of that element whereas the elements cards here would be an excess or saturation of something. It would tell you what is too present. At the other end of the spectrum to the Aces, as it were...

 

[firecatpickles]

But myths attributed to zodiac signs? This intrigues me. What exactly do you mean?

This is a great Site:

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Fixedstars.htm

Williams's book is a great scholarly resource about art history but helps little in readings, IMHO.

What can't the elements be more like Empedocles's "roots" rather than simply elements?

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/Intro.html

 

[firecatpickles]

OK.. let me think about that... Houses that the signs rule.. I think I can lay my hands on a book which is going to help me with this...

You can find many resources on the Internet. I got most of mine from Molly's Astrology:

http://www.north-node.com/astrology-tutorials/houses-meanings

Often I find in a reading that an astrology card showing up can mean an issue in one of these areas. Either that or something closely paralleling the zodiac myth is happening in the sitter's life then.

 

[firecatpickles]

But I use a mismosh of resources for mine:

ARIES, First House: House of the Ego
TAURUS, Second House: The House of Property
GEMINI, Third House: The House of Lower Communication
CANCER, Fourth House: The House of the Home (as in "childhood home")
LEO, Fifth House: The House of the Father
VIRGO, Sixth House: The House of Hearth and Health
LIBRA, Seventh House: The House of Relationships
SCORPIO, Eighth House: The House of Sex
SAGITTARIUS Ninth House: The House of Higher Communication
CAPRICORN, Tenth House: The House of Politics
AQUARIUS, Eleventh House: The House of Friendship
PISCES, Twelfth House: The House of Secrets

I have also found that the planetary rulerships of each sign can help lots, but I use only the "classical" 7 planets; omitting Neptune, Uranus and Pluto; since this deck precedes the discovery of those planets.

 

[sapienza]

Astrology is a kind of parallel, impenetrable universe for me. How lucky you are sapienza, to have a grounding in this. I feel more and more that my astrological knowledge is inadequate for the decks I like (Minchiate, Thoth, Liber T). I have a basic, astrological primer which I should try and learn more. (Don't laugh) it's the Astrological Directory by Annie Lionnet. It's just that anything more advanced loses me. And astrology doesn't naturally intrigue me as much as tarot images. It's tarot I want to learn!

Any basic book is a good place to start. I find it hard to recommend a really good beginner astrology book to be honest. I will admit when working with the Thoth, the astrology did come in very handy, adds another layer. I did a talk at my local tarot meet-up group last year which focused specifically on using astrology for tarot. Shame you are not close enough to pop over for a weekend But every little bit helps and astrology is the kind of thing, like tarot, where the learning never ends, it just builds slowly and one day you realise you actually know some stuff.

I can see a way into the elements, though. Funny Sapienza, you see them as somehow similar to the Aces. I don't; for me the Aces are more seeds, the burgeoning of that element whereas the elements cards here would be an excess or saturation of something. It would tell you what is too present. At the other end of the spectrum to the Aces, as it were...

Yes, I can see that, and it certainly does make more sense. And really, the elements are trumps in effect and so should indicate a more intense or, as you say, saturated, level of the element.