Natural Sequences Marrying Image to Number

[Rosanne]

In many traditions 'number' is a fundamental principle from which the whole objective world proceeds: it is the origin of all things and the underlying harmony of the Universe. It is also the basic principle in proportion in the Arts and in Music and Poetry (and Architecture) (taken from JC Cooper on discussion on Symbols)

Because numbers were thought to be used by Gods to regulate the Universe- they were thought to have a particular symbolic significance. This symbolic significance could be seen now as a 'Natural order' or the common way we see in images a number. For example if we see two Lions- this represents twofold strength. Or two in images might symbolise opposites = The Sun and the Moon for example.

In Tarot we have, aside from the pips and courts 22 cards, that originally were not numbered- but became numbered; they have fallen into a sequence that is discussed much. Many people have decided what this sequence speaks of. One such idea is that the sequence is due to to Triumphal processions a Roman Parade. During the Renaissance the idea of of this procession was revived in practice and in Art works. Trionfi by Petrarch was poetry, and was about a Triumph procession. In other ideas the sequence is seen to be the Hebrew Alphabet and its association with Kaballah and the Tree of Life. Another is the Book of Revelation and it's 22 chapters, or the Redemption of Man from biblical sources- explaining the Fall of Man and his return to Paradise. Some ideas are astrological as well and I like these very much.

What I am proposing is that there is a natural order understood, that may have allowed the cards to fall into a sequence aside from all these other equally valid ideas.

For example where in 22 cards is it the most natural and acceptable place to put the Death card? It seems always to have been at Number 13. In Christianity there are thirteen Lenten candles which are extinguished one by one symbolising the earth going into darkness at Christ's Death. This is aside from all the unlucky or Calender aspects of the number 13.

Is the sequence we have now in Tarot it's most natural order? That is what I am trying to find out. Have you any insight into this from an Historical point of view? Especially if you can relate the Tarot image of the Card to the number. I have many ideas on the naturalness of Le Pape been at card number 5.
I Would love to hear your views!

~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

Here is an excerpt from Wheaton College on Numbers

Numbers did matter--and for that reason they are significant in the art and literature of the period. It is certainly true that not every number in a work of art is significant symbolically any more than every animal, or color, or plant has a deep meaning. Sometimes an author will use a figure such as 100 or 1,000 to suggest a large number. But when an author uses a specific number in a conspicuous way, the reader needs to consider the symbolic possibilities. Chaucer, for example, specifically tells us that there are 29 pilgrims going to Canterbury. Critics have added and re-added and re-figured the number of pilgrims, but they have missed the point. As Edmund Reiss points out, 29 is a number just short of 30. Since 30 is a number of perfection because it is a product of 3 (the number of the Trinity) and 10, 29 becomes a number approaching perfection--an ideal number to suggest the idea of pilgrimage.

Now if Tarot had a card 29- how would you make an image that embodied the quality inherent in the number?
Would you draw 29 Pilgrims? What are the symbolic possibilities of a certain Number?
The Pythagoreans, one was the monad, the source of all other numbers, good, desirable, essential, indivisible. Pythagoras had much influence over Medieval philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas, who echoes the idea of one as a source. He wrote:
Since the soul is one and the powers are many; and since a number of things that proceed from one must proceed in a certain order; there must be some order among the powers of the soul.
Now look at Card 1 the Bateleur. He is one man and before him on his table are powers- you could look at this image as describing the Number One.
This is the direction of portraying Numbers in images in a natural order.
~Rosanne

 

[Debra]

This is fascinating, Rosanne. But then what of II? I lack imagination and knowledge both. But what I see: The Papess is one person (and perhaps only the maybe real Pope Joan, a unique person); she sits on one throne holding one book. What is "two-ish" about that lady? I don't see....

 

[Rosanne]

Hi Debra!
It is hard to clear my mind of all the ideas that have gone before. I think maybe there was a core group once upon a time- maybe 14-18 cards? These became enlarged upon I guess. So I tried to find the cards that were actually describing the quality of the number within the image somehow.
When you lay the 22 out it seems that some have a 'naturalness' of place. I am not sure of card 2 myself. Maybe it is all coincidence
Take the number 5 card- If you look at it the hand is what is the central symbol- and often it is called the blessing hand. In Moorish Spain and in Italy- the hand has the same precepts of Christianity and Islam. The blessing hand because it has five fingers is the five precepts of both- Faith/Prayer/Pilgrimage/Fasting /Charity. Seems the right place for card 5 the aspect of a leader of a religion.
Card 4 we call the Emperor. How to show 4 in a personage? (All Tarot cards are basically persons describing the quality- There are not shapes for instance). The most basic idea of is that it is 'Earthly' as opposed to the trinity 'Heavenly'. As a earth temple has four sides for example- so how would you show it? Who is in charge of the Earth in all four directions- an Emperor would embody this idea- just as a Religious leader would embody 5.
What does seven mean? Can't show 7 days. Here we have a square Chariot with a canopy of the what? Sky? Seven is completeness made up of three of the Heavens and the soul, and four of the Earth (and the body is also four). It is the first number which contains both the spiritual and the temporal or Earthly. When really thinking about it and looking at the Marseille Deck- this is a great card 7.
But it takes some thinking about- this 'natural order' of images to numbers- but somehow there was an order that was accepted once...long long ago
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

I meant to add, that I took a cheap Marseilles deck- cut off all titles and numbers and tried to place them in their best position or position of numerical 'rightness'.
Card number 14 (Temperance) in this line of thought seems wrong - and I would have put it at Card 6- which would give it its image of equilibrium and Harmony. I see that in some very early decks and the Steele Manuscript it was at position 6.
~Rosanne

 

[conversus]

What a cool exercise, Rosanne! Care to share with us some of your results? For example if Temperance seems natural to you at 6, where did you find a place for the Lovers?

 

[Skydancer]

I've been watching this thread and something just this minute occured to me: is there a connection between the word 'mage' and 'images'??

I have a RWS that is now bare of names and numbers - I think maybe all decks should be that way. That way when you really come to know the deck, totally learn it, you will know what they represent anyway - and you can put them in any sequence you want without the client (other person) asking why you say this when the card says that.

Make sense?
*S*

added: do you like Temerance at 6 because of the 2 X 3? Or because of the 5 and 7 on either side?

 

[frelkins]

added: do you like Temerance at 6 because of the 2 X 3? Or because of the 5 and 7 on either side?

I think she likes Temperance at 6 because it is the Neoplatonic female "marriage" number, and the hot chick angel on most decks "marries" the 2 substances as she pours them back and forth.

 

[Melanchollic]

I'm sure when they got around to putting numbers on the cards, in all the different regional variations, some influence from classical and popular number lore went into the choices. Death is an obvious one, or Love as the 6, with its associations to marriage and Venus. I don't believe however these assigned numerals were key to the over-all allegory of the 22 trumps, or somehow definitive of a specific image's intended allegory. The allegory of Death is still the allegory of Death regardless of what it's number is, and the allegory of Love is still the allegory of Love, regardless of what it's number is.

Numbering of the cards began at least a century after the games beginning, and was probably a necessity of tarot moving from the courtly halls of the educated upper classes to the pubs and taverns and the uneducated lower class.

More than the numbering, I think the ordering is essential. Comparing the various dozen or more historical orderings is the way to see what is important and what is not.

The virtues tend to have extreme variation within the various orderings. Obviously their positions are not essential to the main allegory.


Three groupings of cards however never 'leave' their group -

1. Fool, Juggler, Empress, Emperor, Papasse, Pope
   
   
2. Love, Chariot, Time, Fortune, Traitor, Death
   
   
3. Devil, Tower, Star, Moon, Sun, Judgement, World

Clearly these divisions are important and meaningful in making an educated assumption about the allegory's meaning.

Within group #1, only the Papesse's position ever varies. Why?

In group #2, Love/Chariot always are paired (sans virtues), and always come before Time/Fortune. In some orderings the Chariot comes before Love. In some orderings Fortune comes before Time, but they are always paired and the basic sequence Love/Chariot - Time/Fortune - Traitor/Death, never changes. Why?

In group #3 all orderings are exactly the same, again sans virtues. Why?


While the specific numbers assigned to specific cards greatly varies, and even the names of the cards vary, this basic structure is always consistent. I think it is here we should look to understand what the message of the tarot is.

 

[Rosanne]

I've been watching this thread and something just this minute occured to me: is there a connection between the word 'mage' and 'images'??

Well Mage/Magi is the English form of the Greek word which I can't type in, which was the Greek word for the Persian word meaning Magus. So you have a chain of meanings. The Persians thought a Magus was from Priestly cast and could do Magic- that is in the Main Astronomy/astrology and read signs; and performing great things in front of the awe filled people. They were also considered wise.Except some Christians thought they were sorcerers- all except the ones who went to Bethlehem. Image comes from the Latin word
imago from the same root word as imitate-imitari.

I have a RWS that is now bare of names and numbers - I think maybe all decks should be that way. That way when you really come to know the deck, totally learn it, you will know what they represent anyway - and you can put them in any sequence you want without the client (other person) asking why you say this when the card says that.

Well you have a point there- but I am talking about much longer ago than the RWS. From where the RWS came into Tarot history was from a very different outlook. It does bring up a very important point. There is an accepted sequence now, and it has been this way for a very long time- except for small variations (like 8/11 11/8 etc) When you read books on Number symbolism that have do with Tarot; like the very good Robert ONeill 'Tarot Symbolism' + books on the Kaballah and Tarot; you find that the card to the number seems forced somehow into an unnatural position.

For example it is said that as the first odd number is considered Male- but it is the aspect of Motherhood and childbirth -this is how apparently we have this card Empress at three. Yet in earlier decks The Empress was Card 2 and the Papesse was Card 3. Where does she fit naturally? At position 2, I am thinking.
~Rosanne
PS Temperance at 6 because the number 6 is Harmony and Equilibrium, which the card shows well.