Newbie to Thoth needs advice

[Richard]

Commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower
Introduction to the I Ching
Psychology and Alchemy
Mysterium Conjunctionis
Psychology and Religion
Psychology and the Occult
Synchronicity

 

[ravenest]

Not in my church. We cannot pray angels, the saints, Mary, no one except Jesus. But sometimes I go to peep in a catholic church, and they have all these, and beautiful crystal windows! And statues! Oh it's so beautiful! But no, in my church, walls are blank, and we have no statues.

yeah ?

take a stroll into a a big Greek Orthodox Church someday .... wow !

 

[ravenest]

I was only making a point that your definition that Thelema is a "system of magical philosophy" is obscure, illogical and full of contradictions from genuine philosophical point of view.

So I gave simple and clear explanation and examples clarifying on the issues.

and I gave a simple and obvious countering of those points.

 

[ravenest]

Jung is a psychologist, why bring him into this thread? We have been talking about Philosophy, Magic, Thelema and Religion.

To show that more than philosophers believe and have experienced this 'daemonic connection'.

Why do you pick the one who is not a philosopher . Just remove Jung then, my point stands firm in this. Many philosophers have had daemonic ... 'leadership' ... even.

That is all in context with Philosophy, Magic, Thelema and Religion.

You seem be confused between Metaphysics and Magic. They are not the same.

Only if you restrict your definition of Magick and ignore all my relevant points .

Of course Plato's system is largely about the world of Ideas, and it had been foundation of Christianity. But he has nothing to do with magical philosophy you are talking about.

No, he does have sooooo much to do with it . Do you even understand how the view of Magick was formed ..... have you not read the earlier works of magic based on neo-Platonism itself ?

 

[ravenest]

Good point. And the term magical philosophy, which needs clarification, I was just saying.

No. You were arguing about it and refuting it and criticising it with narrowed definitions and misquoting me .

 

[ravenest]

Because Jung incorporated Philosophy, Magic and Religion into his theory of analitycal psychology. 'Til this day his theories are used in many spiritual circles. And his approach in psychology is not well-recieved by more "scientific" psychologists. He's less dissed than Freud but still, many students of this field are saying that psychoanalysis and neopsychoanalysis is not their cup of tea. Analytical psychology can be very useful tool here

Methinks ' one ' needs to realise the connection between the two via Regardie . IMO it is an essential joining !

(I have an thread here on the topic, its benefits and the problems when psychology does not temper magical practice; 'Magical Madness' . )

 

[ravenest]

Sure. But but but...
I understood he used philosophy religion magic mysticism and psychology to set up his own psychological system, but he is neither philosopher theologian or magician. He is an Analytical Psychologist.

Of course some of his theories regarding symbols are closely related to tarot studies and readings, but he as a psychologist is not really relevant to what we are talking about in this thread, I would have thought

he is entirely relevent IMO


and you seem to display some type of need to control and direct this thread where it goes ? ? ?

and make an awful lot of assertions doing so, and when one is countered, you immediatly move on to another ...


"just sayin' "

 

[ravenest]

I find Jung very relevant to questions about Thelema. Jung's core purpose for the Work in depth Psychology was for Individuation. As I understand this, it is a shift in awareness that the Ego (our everyday, conscious 'I' thinking) is not the sum of who we really are. Integrating our unconscious hidden aspects and the conscious 'I' reunites us with our true Self. This I see this as similar to Thelema in finding your true Will so that your full potential as an individual star is unlocked.

I also see unification with your HGA to be another expression of this. I move between understanding my HGA as my Self, (higher as in higher than Ego) and as external. Maybe that is because the mind works like that - even in dreams external seeming figures work well as representations of our own thoughts. However, I am inclined to favour external more as it is easier to comprehend, is more emotional and captures my imagination.

From my (admittedly) little reading of Jung so far, I see a serious occultist and magician...

eta I think the questions you are raising are really thought provoking though they are rather huge topics to get a grasp on without a lot of areas to explore first. For me, even starting terms like Philosophy seem to be used in different ways....I thought Philosophy was just how you perceived the universe, self outlook on life etc, this seems to be different to academic Philosophy which looks like it has a more systematic way of thinking...

ps there is no fire.... no need to jump to any conclusions.... (though I do that too )

Also, the whole point is being missed in that one of Crowley's main contributions to magic was his 'psychological explanations'.

I even know 'occultists / magicians' who will not have a bar of crowley or modern magic and are actually angry about what he 'did to magic' by inserting this 'psychological qualifier' as magic never had that.

They may have a similar position to what FoolMoon seems to have here ... but specifically with Crowley and Thelema , it is totally ' off course ' .

 

[ravenest]

I have not read Jung yet, but I can see why you feel Jung and Thelema are related from your post.

So, you know purport to speak qualified on what you have not read ?

Again, I ask as I did before .... have you read Liber Aba Book 4 ?

In that respect, I was thinking if Thelema and Buddhism could be also related in religious level. But it could be another thread of its own.

i found it odd to bring Jung into the argument in the process of clarification of the statement, "Thelema is not a religion. It is a system of magical philosophy."

Who is saying Thelema cannot be a religion ... besides you ?

I thought it is not that clear cut issue to be able to claim adamantly without checking out a few points, and the mumbo jumbo terminology "a system of magical philosophy" could be clarified.

It isnt a 'clear cut issue' Thelema is a complex system that uses eclectic symbology on a variety of levels dealing with a variety of issues .

I have outlined how some of those relate to philosophy but you seem to be ignoring certain answers .

 

[foolMoon]

Commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower
Introduction to the I Ching
Psychology and Alchemy
Mysterium Conjunctionis
Psychology and Religion
Psychology and the Occult
Synchronicity

TBH I didn't used to take Jung seriously before, but I would be interested to know if he had written anything about Thelema, and magical philosophy.