On the nature of Tarot

[Dannil]

I have a question about the nature of Tarot. But before I ask, I think I should explain a bit about where I'm coming from.

I'm totally new to Tarot. This sudden interest in Tarot that I now have is totally out of character for me. I've always considered myself to be a very scientific guy, being an IT consultant and all. And I've pretty much always been an atheist too.

But then, about two years ago, I read a critical article about Scientology which sparked my interest. I read all I could find about it - not because I liked Scientology, but because it was so strange and foreign to me how somebody could join something like that. Anyway, in my readings I came across references to Aleister Crowley, which again sparked my interest. So I started reading about him too, and I realised that there are people alive today who actually believe in (paranormal) magic. That felt VERY strange to me. "How on earth can people actually believe in magic?", I thought. Are they being brain-washed somehow, or are they just self-delusional? So, then I started reading everything I could find about magic. While doing that, I came across Wicca (a modern witchcraft religion based on pre-Christian European religions). Belief in magic is common among Wiccans. I ordered some books about Wicca, and now I find myself contemplating becoming a Wiccan myself.

Like I said, you must realise that this is totally out of character for me. In two years time, I've gone from being a very physical, scientific guy to being interested in Wicca, Tarot, and now I believe that magic just might be possible. It's been quite a journey.

Now that you know a little bit about my background, you might have an easier time understanding why I'm both interested in, and sceptical of Tarot. I mean, can you really tell the future with it? I see several possiblities, and I don't know what to believe.

Theory 1: Could it be that there is nothing "supernatural"* at all about Tarot? We can't really use Tarot to find out things we didn't already know. However, there are things that we know subconsciously that we're not consciously aware of. Perhaps Tarot can be a mediator between our subconscious and our conscious awareness that helps us become consciously aware of things we already subconsciuously knew. For example, let's say I'm in a bad relationship. Deep down inside (read: subconsciously) I already know that this relationship is doomed, but consciously I really want it to work. I ask the Tarot about the future of the relationship. Since (under this theory) there is nothing supernatural, all I get is a bunch of random cards. However, I still interpret them as "my relationship is doomed". Why? Because I subconsciously already knew that, but the cards helped bring that knowledge to my conscious awareness.

Theory 2: The Tarot cards themselves aren't supernatural, but our subconscious is. Our subconscious is supernaturally aware of likely future events, and using random Tarot cards (since there is nothing supernatural about the cards themselves) help us bridge the gap to the subconscious so that we can become consciously aware of this supernatural knowledge that the subconscious has.

Theory 3: The Tarot cards, and the way we use them, are supernatural. Supernatural forces guide us in shuffling and cutting the deck in such a way that when we do our spreads, we are able to discern likely future events that we previously had neither conscious nor subconscious knowledge of.

I'd appreciate any comments or thoughts you might have about this.


* I hate the word "supernatural". There is nothing supernatural. Everything that exists is natural, science just hasn't found the natural laws that control some aspects of the universe yet.

 

[Sulis]

* I hate the word "supernatural". There is nothing supernatural. Everything that exists is natural, science just hasn't found the natural laws that control some aspects of the universe yet.

Wise words and my thoughts exactly. I too hate the word 'supernatural', I don't believe in the 'supernatural', I believe that everything in this Universe of ours is natural, we just don't understand a lot of it yet and maybe we never will.

I 'believe' in magic because I've seen magic at work.
Similarly I 'believe' that tarot works because I've had experience of it working - stick around these boards for a bit and keep using your cards and I'm sure you'll see it working too.
I don't know how magic works and I don't know how tarot works but I have a feeling it's because everything in the world is really made from energy and on some level everything is related and linked to everything else.

Strange things happen all the time and many of them can't be explained - it doesn't mean they didn't happen though or that folks who experienced them are somehow delusional.
Here's an example of magic at work (in my opinion);
A couple of years ago my father was very ill, I mean very ill. He was on a ventilator in a coma for around 6 weeks. The medical staff advised my mother, my sister and myself that there was nothing else they could do and that my father was going to die.
For the 6 weeks that he was in this state, I did numerous healing spells (I'm not Wiccan but do consider myself to be a Witch) and many of my friends did them too. Friends I have who use Reiki sent distant healing to my dad - one of my friends even described the position of his bed and told me things that the medical staff had told us but that no-one else new (this person was in Europe at the time and has never met my father).
One day he just got better, just like that. He just opened his eyes and within days he was regaining his strength and was being moved to another ward.
In the words of the surgeon looking after him it was 'a miracle'.

Magic is the word I used

Enjoy your tarot journey and enjoy these forums. There are many knowledgable and intellectual folk around here who will no doubt be able to answer your questions much better than I.

For me, I don't have to know how the cards work, it's enough for me to know that they do.

Sulis xx

 

[full deck]

Welcome then

Hello and welcome Dannil.

I'm curious, just what is it about Wiccan and Tarot that you find of interest?

Regarding your three theories, I would be inclined to think that all three were possible, though there is no scientifically valid method of proving such.

Your first theory reminds me much of statements that C.G. Jung makes regarding symbols of the subconcious mind. Though such is possible, there is more to Tarot than being only an interface to the subconcious mind.

Your second theory is more to my point of view regarding Tarot. A deck is a deck of printed cards. If they burn up, maybe that is too bad, unless it was a tacky, tasteless deck -- which there are too many, alas. It is the reader that is the engine that makes it all possible, the cards being a bit like gasoline for the engine. One learns and trains to be a better reader, to be more perceptive and intuitive, yet at the same time develop a more critical approach to just what it is to use the Tarot.

Regarding your third theory, that too seems possible, upon occasion. If you talk to several other more experienced, non-superstitious readers herein ("JMD" maybe), they will tell you that the Tarot symbols are real entities, i.e., a real entity that embodies the Magician or the Emperor. I myself am guided when I read but I would refrain from talking about departed spirits, rather I might talk about different aspects of God and its manifestation.

 

[Tetrflare]

I'm a physics grad and into research and development. The usual sort of scientific guy, but I always believe in the "supernatural" or what I believe the effects of spiritualism.

I stick with your theory 2 that the cards are a tool for your understanding, but something greater is giving you the ability to control the cards. It need not be cards. If you are a christian, just flip the bible and the page will always related to your dilemma you need to solve(and I'm not christian, btw). If you need something, believe in it and it will be. Have faith and it will happen. Thats the principle that I go by, and it have proven to me time and again.

Therefore, you only need to be as sceptical about the tarot as you are about yourself.

 

[Dannil]

I'm curious, just what is it about Wiccan and Tarot that you find of interest?

There are many aspects of Wicca that I find attractive. For example, when it comes to moral issues, my stance has always been "Nothing is wrong as long as it doesn't hurt anyone". The heart of the Wiccan Rede is "An it harm none, do as ye will" ("an" is an old English word that means "if"). As you can see, that closely matches my own moral code. Then there's there's Wicca's respect for, and closeness with nature, and the universe at large. That too appeals to me.

And as for my newfound interest in Tarot... I'm not sure, I guess the mysterious is always appealing. Also, if I find that I actually can predict future events in a "supernatural" manner, that would totally change my (Neutonian) world view. I mean, to me, as a scientific kind of guy, that would totally change *everything*. Besides, I can't credibly dismiss something like this without first trying it myself.

 

[Arania]

* I hate the word "supernatural". There is nothing supernatural. Everything that exists is natural, science just hasn't found the natural laws that control some aspects of the universe yet.

Exactly. Everything in the universe is logically connected, which makes certain things work, and we call them "magic." A 1000 years ago, cell phones would have been "magic."

 

[brenmck]

Theory 3: The Tarot cards, and the way we use them, are supernatural. Supernatural forces guide us in shuffling and cutting the deck in such a way that when we do our spreads, we are able to discern likely future events that we previously had neither conscious nor subconscious knowledge of.
* I hate the word "supernatural". There is nothing supernatural. Everything that exists is natural, science just hasn't found the natural laws that control some aspects of the universe yet.

Theory 3 is our "eureka" moment, IMHO. Who is to say these archetypal spirits lived tucked in a brain fold and locked up in our skulls? They could be much more active and present than we usually give them credit for, and could possess astounding powers of motion, influence, and energy.

10,000 years from now we could be regarded as the "cave men of consciousness," applied by anthropologists to those of us who explore these issues, who are just beginning to learn and use the basic tools of consciousness.

I can't attribute the quote, but one of my favorites about Carl Jung is that "he made the supernatural natural."

~B~

 

[SunChariot]

Personally I don't think Tarot, or the magic in this world and the ability in us to connect to the magic in this world is supernatural. We just live in a society that does place so much emphasis on science and so much less on the spiritual magic around us. It is there and always has been, it is perfectly natural, just too many of us forgotten how to see it and find it. And I see that as such a shame. If there is magic in the world it is there to be used.

Long ago in other historical periods, divination was commonplace and people didn't doubt it worked. They didn't doubt it because it WAS commonplace and they saw it work all around them in their lives and in the lives of others. Many people today look back and think they were just ignorant...Honestly, I think in a lot of spiritual ways many people today are more ignorant than people used to be (in those areas). We seem to have moved away from that more and more with the coming of science. Yet is was (and in my feeling very much still is) a real part of the world that we have been chosing to ingore and underplay. It always has seemed to me that as we "progressed" over time, we have also lost so much.

And yes, Tarot can and does predict the future, as well as many other uses that it has. But Tarot amongst other things shows that the future is not written in stone, it can be changed. A Tarot reading can and will predict the probable future. This is the future that will take place unless somethign changes from now till then. If you don't like that future, there are usually steps you can take to change it. And you can do a reading to see what these steps are. And thus create the future you want, not just fall into it unawares. This is very empowering, and for me part of what I love most about Tarot.

It is also amazing at unveiling hidden and unconscious motives. If you find yourself not acting in your best interest and can't figure out why, a good reading can clarify and help you to act in more self-promotings ways.

As for all the theories you mentioned. That is currently all we know for sure: that it works. No one really knows for sure how it works. All we have is theories. Some people embrace one over another, but like anything spiritual it can't be proven. Not being able to prove something one way of the other does now mean it does not exist. As you said the only way to find out is to try it with an open mind and heart. And it does work for millions of people. And that is what matters in the end. Not how it works, but that it does. And it does. Spiritual things can't usually be proven in mass scientic ways, only be experiencing them can you find your own personal proof. The first step in prooving them to yourself is always faith.

As for your theory 3, that is my personal feeling that I am asking the universe (read G-d) for answers and he is sending them to me. I wouldn't go so far though as to call that supernatural. Whether you see the asnwers as coming from some angel or G-d, or whatever higher power you believe in, for the people who beleive that is is very much a natural part of the world. To me, no matter how I can try I cannot imagine anythign supernatural in relation to Tarot.

Yes, Tarot is a wonderful tool for improving your life and creating your best life.

And I guess that's all I have to say for tonight,

although you can see how I feel about it by my signature,

Bar

PS

As for this theory:"For example, let's say I'm in a bad relationship. Deep down inside (read: subconsciously) I already know that this relationship is doomed, but consciously I really want it to work. I ask the Tarot about the future of the relationship. Since (under this theory) there is nothing supernatural, all I get is a bunch of random cards. However, I still interpret them as "my relationship is doomed". Why? Because I subconsciously already knew that, but the cards helped bring that knowledge to my conscious awareness."

It is not just how you interpret the cards, but when you do a reading and sincerely seek an honest answer, the right card WILL come up to asnwer your question. You could ask about a relationship and be sure inside you forever that it will last forever and then get the Death card (meaning the relationship is ending). That happened to me in my first Tarot reading. Or you could be sure inside that it is ending and the card for your future of your relationship would be "The Lovers" (which could indicate a more eternal love. There is no way to see that as the relationship ending even if that is what you expected the cards to say.

It has very much been my experience that whenever you sincerely ask Tarot a question, with whatever deck you use, the cards that come up are always the best ones that deck has to show you what the universe wants you to see. It does feel very much like a communication with a higher power to me. You ask and it always gives you the right answer. Not that we are not infallable in our reading skills, especially when we are new to it. But the right answers very much seem to always come up, often in quite magical ways.

And here is one more theory for you, that I sort of beleive myself.. That Tarot is a tool to improve your intuition. The more you use it the more it strenghtens (like a muscle) and not just in Tarot but in other aspects of your life as well. Intuition can be related to our psychic abilities. We all have these abilities in us to some extent and can strengten them, perhaps it's related to all the parts of our brains we don't currently use. One thing in my experience that makes me beleive that, is that I can tell you I had next to NO intuition when I started Tarot, and that was only in May 04. Not only has Tarot very much changed my view of teh world, to one that seems so much more beautiful to me now. But I can say that I do read very and pretty well exclusively intuitively. And over time, my readings have been getting more and more accurate. So I can know in that way that I AM becoming more intuitive, and I know this is why.

Oh and one more thing. I really do admire your courage to challenge your long-held views like that. Good for you, sometimes you just have to stop and rethink so you can be sure what your ideas are based on and if some need changing...been there done that too. Anyway, I will say it again, I am sure parts of this were hard for you and I do admire your courage here.

 

[SunChariot]

Exactly. Everything in the universe is logically connected, which makes certain things work, and we call them "magic." A 1000 years ago, cell phones would have been "magic."

Very beautifully said. I love this!

 

[Cerulean]

I was curious about the 'future' slant of the thoughts presented.

May I suggest a rephrasing, without the words supernatural?
Respectfully, I am hoping that I get your thoughts, even without using the term supernatural:

1. "Tarot can serve as a mediator so that the subconscious message is made more clear to my conscious awareness. "

2. "My subconscious has a sensitivity to be able to intuit or make known some future event or can present foreknowledge of an event and I can use tarot to pull this sensitivity out into the open, to the present."

3. "Tarot cards and the way we use them can help us have the ability to discern likely future events---but without tarot, we previously had neither conscious nor subconscious knowledge of such events.

The processes that we do for tarot invite spiritual or outsided guidance, which guide us in shuffling and cutting the deck in such a way that when we do our spreads, we are able to discern likely future events."

My apologies if my rephrasing tosses out the idea of magic or spiritual forces or supernatural in a way you didn't mean--yet, there was a bit of something in your first message that suggested a rephrasing to me. How about seeing it as a more 'natural' process to self-knowledge?

I guess my silly head saw these as steps or a thoughtful progression of what one might believe about their own tarot reading and processes. And so I rephrased them to the limits of my understanding...or ways of reading tarot.

Perhaps the responses here as well as your message suggested to me an interest in the tarot that seems to take into account a fascination of the process of 'tarot-reading' and thinking of how it might work, why it might work--both in pulling out inner awareness to the surface awareness and also in a way that would grow a perception to outer awareness, to be in touch of likely events to come. Is this an accurate reflection? Before I say anything else, I am hoping I didn't stretch your meaning too far outside of what you meant!

My response is quite long enough, but perhaps just one example of what I was thinking as a natural process--
1) if it's true we might have elements of simpler associative brains--say a yearning for brightness and light--and
2) our present circumstances are tiring and perhaps perceived as 'darker'...and so
3) we do tarot deck and card picks that have our fingers and brains working until we pick the cards that seem to suggest light and warmth...
4) and then we realize what we want involves activity with sunlight, warmth, something different and then
5) write down ways to do such activities or plan to do such things...
then
6) our friend calls us within a day or so and says he/she wants to play in the sun...
7) and either in our readings/self visualization/imagination, we flash on the sun card in our deck....

Didn't we anticipate or make contact in some way with the Sun card through our tarot process? And we had a friend who also did the same thing or connect to the same mood--without tarot at all. But we, who do tarot, might remark about the sun significance to ourselves and feel we connected to a higher wisdom and remember the sun card image more significantly. Given this
connection experience, we might be able to more quickly sense when we feel off and also flash on the solution idea of 'I just need more sun' . And with that quick access to self-knowledge and association, we might be able to be connected to a kind of magic or higher wisdom that 'guides' us--naturally.

Hope this long answer makes sense...sorry in advance if it's inappropriate and I can edit...Thanks for your ideas, which were thoughtful and perhaps inspired a too long answer...

Cerulean