Plato and Tarot

beanu

Argh, You are correct, of course.

Now the question is, which other bits have I remembered wrong from when I worked this through.
salt, sulphur and mercury are bold, soul and spirit, but in which order?
Salt - body, I'm sure.
and if mercury = soul (I'm pretty sure, from that soul of metals bit)
then sulphur = spirit ??

So is it the spirit descending, or the soul,
or is there a confusion of translation?

My definitions - we each have a soul, but there is only one spirit.

So the kabalah would say that it is the spirit descending through the tree,
but Plato says it is the soul descending, and refers to the World Soul in a way I would probably call spirit.
To put it another way, are we talking about a creation myth (kabalah)
or the process of incarnation of the individual soul?
or both?
 

venicebard

beanu said:
salt, sulphur and mercury are bold, soul and spirit, but in which order?
Salt - body, I'm sure.
and if mercury = soul (I'm pretty sure, from that soul of metals bit)
then sulphur = spirit ??
...
My definitions - we each have a soul, but there is only one spirit.
I reject the usual tripartite division body-soul-spirit, since spirit and soul are but the active and passive aspects of the same entity (which Harold W. Percival calls the breath-form). But given said division, in plant alchemy Our Mercury means alcohol, the same in all plants, hence spirit. Sulphur is the specific oils, hence soul.
To put it another way, are we talking about a creation myth (kabalah)
or the process of incarnation of the individual soul?
or both?
I don't believe a true Qabbalist (as opposed to a modern Kabbalist) even believes in a 'creation' (ex nihilo, by 'God'), only in ongoing creation (in the present instant, by the doers in human beings).

As I see it, the Tree as usually mapped shows the structure of the psyche: 1, its sexless aspect (Uprightness itself); 2 and 3, its chaste male and female aspects; 4 and 5, its procreative male and female aspects; 6, their common goal (offspring); 7 and 8, its lustful male and female aspects; 9 and 10, their goal, on which they do not agree (9 months of gestation vs. what can be grasped in the 10 fingers).
 

kapoore

Hi,
I agree that the Neo-Platonic three part division is awkward, but it is an attempt to answer the key Platonic question. How does the One become the Many? The Neo-Platonists (Plotinus's tradition) have a graded movement from the One to the Many. The Gnostics and Ps Dionysius have theophany, which is a version of the One and the Many. We moderns think we can solve the deep questions of Plato with psychology, but in a way the three part division is a process as deep as psychology. We perceive through our senses (one level), our rationality (another level), and then our intuitive (another level). Some moderns have reduced perception to the mere sensual level, some to the mere rational level. This collapsing of perception allows us to become manipulated more easily because what is fascism but a collapsing of the psyche into a flatness.

The graded levels of the psyche are a form of self-knowledge. My body wants to consume--appetite. My rationality only believes in cause and effect. My intuition understands how to govern the appetites and the rationality. It is Temperance that triumphs over the errors of the appetites---the Devil. It is Justice that triumphs over the errors of rationality. We have to first ask when our mind tries to trick us--but is it Just? The journey of the mind can be a long strange trip (as they say), and how often have we been tricked by reason. Then we say, next time I'm going with my gut, my intuition. Or now, I really have to pay attention to my sensual perception. I need to ground myself. And so on.

So, the three levels are in reality one perception with a more subtle processing of information.

Warm regards,...
 

venicebard

kapoore said:
How does the One become the Many? The Neo-Platonists (Plotinus's tradition) have a graded movement from the One to the Many. The Gnostics...
I myself am Gnostic, and there is variety within that classification--into dualistic and unitary, for example. Anyway, Plato himself saw this as the interaction of the undivided, hence eternal, with the durationless present to produce that which is of finite duration (gotten in part from The Republic, chapter 19). To this a 'Judeo-pagan' Gnostic of my stripe would add that the map of the span from eternal to durationless is the Kabbalistic Tree, or at least its equivalence in planetary 'spheres': 1) stellar energy (conserved, hence eternal), 2) great year, 3) Saturn, 4) Jupiter, 5) Mars, 6) the year, 7) Venus, 8) Mercury, 9) the month, 10) the day--today, in other words. (The planets beyond Saturn, invisible to the eye normally, are essentially counterweights, as their motion is retrograde relative to the solar system's inertial frame, which revolves relative to the stars with a period between that of Saturn and Uranus.)

Moreover, there is the very real tripartite division of a conscious self, based on Plato's analysis mentioned above: the knower (of the eternal), the thinker (about what is of finite duration), and the doer (who must act in the present instant). This of course leaves out body, soul, and spirit, because they are of nature, not of self: the body is made of countless elemental units of matter, of cells, of tissues, of organs, of systems, and so on, while spirit and soul are the active and passive aspects or 'sides' of the unit that holds all these units into coherent shape-and-progression, a breathing soul or breath-form--the quintessence (of nature).

And as for mind, are there not several distinct 'minds', or sources of thought? There is the body itself (which houses the senses), meaning its effect on the psyche or doer, a doer being distinct from the body in which it dwells. Then there is feeling, or that in the doer which expresses what comes from without--which fully expressed is BEAUTY--and there is desire, or that in the doer which expresses what arises from within (which fully expressed is Power). Then there is conscience, or rightness--the GOOD--or that in the thinker that deals with what is without; and reason itself, that in the thinker that deals with what is within (or what has been taken in). Then there is I-ness--as in "I know"--or that in the knower on which TRUTH (what is eternal) stamps itself (as knowledge); and self-ness, that in the knower which stamps the self's own existence on TRUTH. Seven in all.
Some moderns have reduced perception to the mere sensual level, some to the mere rational level.
Too true.
My rationality only believes in cause and effect.
Yes, the mind of rightness is harsh in that respect and does not let us 'pass the buck', nor does reason accomplish anything without that limitation.
My intuition understands how to govern the appetites and the rationality.
You see, here we differ, for I would think of intuition as being reason-combined-with-rightness, without whose guidance the doer would (and does, since it mostly ignores the thinker) flounder under the bombardment of the senses. For as Plato acknowledges (in The Republic, ch. 19), the present in which the doer must act cannot be known or thought about (only that which has duration passing through it can be thought about or known). The doer therefore needs guidance from its thinker and knower to act responsibly, whereas in us it usually follows sensation instead. (By the way, the passage is usually translated as speaking of 'what exists, what exists and exists not, and what exists not', but from the context the meaning is, rather, 'what abides, what abides and abides not, and what abides not'.)

Warm regards back at ya (that is, returned in kind).
 

kapoore

Hi Venicebard,
In my language when someone is "Jewish-pagan Gnostic." I think you are Jewish ethnically, believe in many gods and goddesses religiously, and like Gnostic literature philosophically. And I know practically nothing about the planetary arrangement on the Tree of Life.

Maybe we could agree that the interesting part of Plato is not the answer to his questions but the questions themselves. For example, there is a question of "how the one become many?" There is the question about absolute versus relative.

The Tarot is Platonic in that it has archetypes or absolutes--Justice, Temperance, Strength. It has a hierarchical structure that reflects a unity. I had an argument with an other individual on the forum because he said that the Tarot can have 14 cards--be missing the Devil, the Tower, the celestial element--and still be Tarot. I think the Tarot is not a random set of symbols but a carefully constructed set of symbols that are related on different levels. It reflects some relativity in the hierarchy but also absolutes.

I believe that the person who invented the Tarot had Plato's questions in mind. The Tarot is one and many at the same time.
 

beanu

OK,
Sorry to take so long getting back.
Thanks Venice bard for your corrections, my two recent errors do give the answer I worked out in more detail two years ago.
Correspondingly, I shal;l repost the argument, with the corrections, below,

The traditional hanged man is making a cross with his legs, and a triangle with his arms.
This corresponds to the alchemical symbol for Sulphur, which has a triangle on top of a cross.
Sulpher is considered to the the soul - oils (as opposed to salt = body, mercury = spirit, alcohol)
and because it can dissolve most metals.

Mercury also represents the soul of man, by the usual extension of alchemy into the human body.

So the man hanging upside down is say" not the body, the soul..."
and so corresponds to Plato's idea of the soul inverted as it descends into the material world.

Other images of the hanged man grasping sacks of gold probably also refer to "materialism"

All that is based on fairly standard occult knowledge.

My bit, based on my theories :-
The Hanged Man is paired with the Hermit in Chesed, on the white pillar which I attribute to Soul/Sulphur, so o this attribution is correct positionally also.
If the Hanged Man is the descent of the soul,
then the Hermit must be the Ascent of the soul,
by knowledge - gnosticism - which is part of Plato's philiophies.
We coul;d say that the hermit is the gnostic who rises up again through knowledge.

Chesed also lies in the world of Briah - mind, knowledge.

B
 

beanu

Recently in that other thread, I related the three "levels" of the chariot to the three worlds f the Tree of life

Charioteer = Atziluth - Spirit, action, fire
White Horse = Briah, mind, air
Dark Horse = Yetzirah , emotions, water

So, my viewpoint is that white horse is the rationality that controls the emotions, but does not of itself result in right action.
The Charioteer is the controller of both, who must react in real time, without time for thought, in order to control the chariot.

Interestingly, I place the Chariot and the Hanged Man (which we discussed recently) both in Briah - mind, on opposite sides of the tree.

It is important to understand distinguish two types of intuitive action without reason.
The lower form is whim, and is generally self-motivated.
Rationality suppresses whim, but is not the ultimate goal.
The higher form of intuitive action without reason is "right action" which is spiritually based, and mativated by divine principles. This is the true intuition. It is usually self-sacrificing for the greater good, or the good of others.

My wiccan background has exposed me to many people who use the lower intuition as a justification for doing whatever they feel like. Wicca promotes the use of intuition over rationalisation, but almost never correctly addresses the two types, or chooses the correct one. It is fire that is the goal, not water. Very Sad.
 

beanu

venicebard said:
As I see it, the Tree as usually mapped shows the structure of the psyche: 1, its sexless aspect (Uprightness itself); 2 and 3, its chaste male and female aspects; 4 and 5, its procreative male and female aspects; 6, their common goal (offspring); 7 and 8, its lustful male and female aspects; 9 and 10, their goal, on which they do not agree (9 months of gestation vs. what can be grasped in the 10 fingers).

This is a beautiful match to my view of the tree, as interpreted through the cards and my pattern!

venicebard said:
1, its sexless aspect (Uprightness itself);
Fool and Magician, which are usually presumed to be male, but there is nothing specific about either.

venicebard said:
2 and 3, its chaste male and female aspects;
Emperor and High Priestess, Empress and Hierophant.
There are indications that the Empress is fertility, but unrealised. She is the Maiden - hence the white garb, with menstrual red flowers

1,2 and 3 are all in the world of Atziluth, spirit.

venicebard said:
4 and 5, its procreative male and female aspects;
Strength and Chariot, Hermit and Hanged Man.
From Alchemy, there are indications that the strength card represends the sexual impregnation.
The Maiden becomes the Mother, - the Lion is the "Holy Spirit" that impregnates her. She is the Virgin Mother of all of the dying god myths, including Christianity.
Similarly, the Chariot can be seen as the charioteer - divine purpose (pro-life, propagation of the species, survival of the species) driving the white horse of parenthood, and the dark horse of lust.

Not too sure about the Hermit in here, but the Hanged Man can be seen as the soul moving into the body - incarnation, into the newly conceived child.

4,5 and 6 are in Briah - mind

venicebard said:
6, their common goal (offspring);
Justice and the Wheel.
Justice should be taken as Plato's concept of "ones role in life"
and the Wheel is "Stuff that happens in life" - i.e. both represent the life of the child. The child is of course the sun god, Jesus, etc. Child of the spirit of his own "higher self" , and the virgin mother.

venicebard said:
7 and 8, its lustful male and female aspects;
Devil and Tower, Star and Temperance.
Lust (of Mars? ) and the Star = Venus - nude beautiful woman. (from MikeH
on the other thread) All in the world of Yetzirah - emotions


venicebard said:
9 and 10, their goal, on which they do not agree (9 months of gestation vs. what can be grasped in the 10 fingers)

Not exactly sure of this pair. My version is:-
9 - Male and Female aspects of the psyche in the one body, at war with each other. Sun and Moon cards. The recognition of the inner female moon aspect within, not just the visible outer sun aspect.

10- Material world - What can be grasped in the 10 fingers.


VeniceBard,
I think that is the most succinct expression of the tree I have seen yet.
Sometimes you confuse me mightily, and other times it is sheer brilliance.
(which of course implies that the confusion is inadequacy on my part, not yours :) )
 

beanu

New Thread?

VeniceBard,
can we start a new thread somewhere to go through you
Ogham/Hebrew stuff? If it is based on sound of letters, I will definitely need you to lead me.
If it is based on shape, then which shape - there are various foir hebrew, etc.

How about in the Kabalah and alphabets section. I'll start it, please join in if you will waste your time leading me through..

B
 

beanu

Kapoore, darling, sweetie,,,,,

its about time you stopped pleading ignorant on the kabala.

VeniceBard's summary is a very good plce to start, plus you have the summary on my site, and the diagram with the cards on the tree to help you!

We need you up-to-speed. Your input is too value to miss over such a trivial issue. Its really not difficult - just ten simple concepts that describe all of creation, etc.