sapienza said:
This is interesting. I am now beginning to wonder how much my understanding of Scorpio is based on what I have learnt studying modern astrology where Scorpio is ruled by Pluto. Would this also be the same for Aquarius and Pisces? This journey into traditional astrology certainly pulls the rug out from under you. It's like being a beginner all over again.....scary, but very exciting.
This is a fascinating thread - and Sapienza, I've trod the same path as you have. I now can't in any way associate Pluto, Uranus and Neptune with Scorpio, Aquarius and Pisces (and as a person with 4 planets in Pisces, this mattered to me personally!). The traditional system has taught me a more rigorous analysis of planets and signs - and how to distinguish them. It's also taught me that the rulership of planets that carry the name of a deity cannot be divorced from the myths of that deity. The planet Venus rules beauty, gardening, all kinds of love, seduction, sex, infidelity, promiscuity, prostitution, money, gifts, jewellery, etc. - because the goddess Venus, over time, came to be associated with all of those.
I do still think the outer planets are useful in mundane charts, and generally in charts that show "grand movements in the background", because a body of astrological knowledge has built around them since they were first discovered by astronomers; and as long as the myths associated with the planets are well known and understood. But the way they were assigned as rulers of planets makes no sense, and also diminishes understanding of the traditional ruler planets, as well as of the signs that were assigned to the rulership of outer planets.
Modern understanding of Mars, for instance, has been diminished because some of what was traditionally Martian - such as intensity and power of transformation through destruction and anger - has been re-assigned to Pluto. Likewise, understanding of the sign of Scorpio, the scorpion, has been modified to fit ideas about plutonian energies, which are very different from Martian energies (even though war dispatches many to the Underworld!).
It's important, when using Pluto, to understand the Plutonian/Hades myths, and their relationship with other myths. I often read in astrological texts that Pluto is the transformatory planet, because it's the planet of sex and death.
Pluto/Hades is king of the Underworld. As such he is not the *cause* of death in any way (that would be Mars who rules war, injury and disease, or Saturn who rules old age)- nor is he the one who brings the dead to the Underworld (that is Mercury/Hermes, the psychopomp). Basically, by the time you reach Pluto, you're already dead, already transformed. Pluto's only claim to bringing transformation is in the story of the abduction of Proserpina, who became his Queen. This, btw, also provides the only association between Pluto and sex and fertility. Otherwise, Pluto was seen as ruling over his kingdom of the dead: and during the time when Propserpina is below ground, there is no fertility on Earth (Ceres goes into mourning).
Sex is far better served by two other planets - Venus (for the feminine side of sex) and Jupiter (for the masculine: because Jupiter was incredibly randy and fertile!)
So - deprived of most of its mythical/metaphorical associations with transformation and sex, what is left for Pluto? I suppose it depends on your views of the Underworld - the Ancients were divided on the matter, some seeing it as a dark place of unremitting awfulness, while others imagined the Elysian Fields, a place of eternal joy and sunshine. From this double notion, which were never reconciled in Ancient thought, were derived the Christian ideas about hell and heaven.
Perhaps the only association with transformation that can still be given to Pluto is linked to the idea of reincarnation, which came from Egypt, and slipped into the cosmology of the Greeks and Romans when Pluto/Hades was equated with Osiris (even though the Osirian myths are completely different), and reincarnation was adopted as a possible third possibility - the Underworld, then, being but a transitory place, a testing place between two lives. But Pluto himself remains in the Underworld, and the one who accompanies the soul in transit would be the psychopomp - Hermes/Mercury. Therefore it's a question whether even with that view of cosmology, Pluto rules transformations. If it were Osiris, I would say yes - but not much Osirian "energy" entered into the Hades/Pluto myths and mysteries.
These are problems, I think, when looking at the mythical and metaphorical underpinnings of astrology. A misunderstanding of myth leads to a misunderstanding of a body given the name of a deity. The same could be said, btw, of Neptune. If I hear once more that Neptune rules wishy-washy indistinct thought, imagination and delusion, I'll scream! Neptune was the great god of the sea, of hurricanes and of earthquakes, for crying out loud! Neptune is the greatest force of nature - even Jupiter with his thunder and lightning couldn't best him. Wishy-washy and deceptive he ain't. When you're struck by a hurricane, you know it, and there's precious little imagination involved. (But don't take my word for it - ask Odysseus
) Of course, he also rules the calm and peaceful seas and swift breezes beloved of sailors and merchants. As such, he is changeable. But so is the Moon, who has a much better claim to rule over imagination, deceptiveness, magic and "things-not-being-quite-what-they-seem".
To my mind, the case against Pluto (and Uranus and Neptune), as rulers - and maybe even in astrology more generally - lies more in that fundamental misunderstanding of the myth-planet than in the size of the body, which is pretty irrelevant. This misunderstanding has led to many distortions. Perhaps the only one of the outer planets for which a strong case can be made is Uranus - and that's because it was discovered at a time when astronomers were still classically trained, and though they had abandoned the practice of astrology, still understood a lot about its mythical underpinnings and relationship to astronomy. The planet Uranus rules much of what the god Ouranos - the primordial father-god and creator - rules. Though I am far from convinced that planet makes the right ruler for Aquarius, which is a fixed sign, quite different from the great cosmic agitation of Ouranos.