Questions about the Chart Interpretation thread

[dadsnook2000]

I have started this thread for two reasons:

FIRST, I'm sure many of those following this thread have questions about the views I've offered. You have all been very kind in letting Moonspirit and I persue this chart exploration. So, feel free to comment or question whatever interests you RELATIVE TO THIS CHART and my posted comments.

SECOND, our moderators have also kindly stood back. They have solid experiene with astrology and will likely differ in their views or want to expand on what I've offered. That is what this forum is all about so I welcome their inputs of any nature.

Thank you all for letting me share in this exciting venture. Dave.

 

[Minderwiz]

Hi Dave,

I enjoyed your interpretation - an excellent tour de force of modern Astrology and a very good demonstration of the art of the Astrologer.

I'm currently reading William Lilly's volume on natal Astrology and if you don't mind I'd like to try out some of the ideas to give a counterpoint to the modern view. I'm not claiming that this approach is any better than the modern view and indeed, seeing that I'm using this as an opportunity to see if I understand some to Lilly's ideas, the posts are likely to be significantly worse. However, it might shed some additional light on the points that you've made.

Please bare with me, as I'm rather busy over the weekend and will need to do some additional checking. You might like the approach in some instances, as there's far less emphasis on sign placements than the modern view.

Also Lilly uses the fixed stars as well as the planets, so there's something of a sidereal dimension to this.

Finally, I'm also going to try out the day/night birth techniques that used to be used.

 

[dadsnook2000]

Yes

Yes, the "the older" approach seems interesting. I used to love it when Noel Tyl did some of his writing in the old style to illustrate the drama and impact that it could have. I'll definitely look forward to your version and reccommend that the other list members also review it carefully.

Of all the astrological authors, I think that Noel Tyl had the most influence on me in terms of my style of writing. I see him in some of my posts. Of course, my methods are quite different from his. Dave.

 

[moonspirit]

I wanted to also say if anyone had questions or comments please feel free.This is a really nice opportunity to see how a person's chart can really correspond or give insights to events in life internal and external. So,if there is anything that I can add to something I said or didn't say (that might help with understanding)...... ask away!

Blessings
moonspirit

 

[Minderwiz]

Preface

There are several problems in using a traditional method of natal interpretation. Firstly 'what is traditional' ? Astrology dates back over 3000 years and the methods of analysis have changed and are changing. There is always a chance that trying traditional methods, will use methods from a variety of eras, rather than applying a clear and developed method. I recognise that this could well be a problem and will try and indicate where I think it applies.

Perhaps more obviously, using classical writers to provide a 'cookbook' approach can easily result in anachronistic interpretations. Society is different now that it was 400 years ago - some would say it has changed beyond all recognition. Much of classical astrology, like modern astrology, looked at the key issues raised by clients. These would be much more likely to be issues of survival - Will my baby live? Will my husband recover from this illness ? and issues of family and land - Will I inherit part of my father's estate? I will try and update the interpretations as much as possible but any failure here is mine.

William Lilly was a practising Astrologer. As such his book has many comments about which classical method works, or indeed doesn't work. He's clearly often in a situation where he needs quick answers for clients, and so will cut corners or go for a more simple approach than a fully considered approach.

As he says, 'if one should follow the niceness of the ancients in every particular, it were impossible to judge one Nativity exactly in half a year's time' Or in modern English, 'if I followed and applied all the rules or the tradition it would take me more than six months to do a complete natal analysis.'

I've followed his lead and looked for the obvious keys, rather than examine all the detail.

 

[Minderwiz]

Chart Analysis Part 1

Moonspirit was born after sunrise, so we have a diurnal or day birth. Day births are ruled by the Sun, which is masculine planet and appropriately in a diurnal or masculine sign.

The starting point for an analysis is the temperament of the native (Moonspirit in this case)

This is assessed from the Ascendant (Leo) it's ruler (Sun also in Leo) planets in the Ascendant (Saturn and Mercury), the Sun itself, the Moon, the Part of Fortune and the Lord of the Geniture (the planet with most essential AND accidental dignity in the chart). Temperament is based on the dimensions of Hot and Cold and Moist and Dry and yields four base types - Choleric or Firey, Saguine (Airy), Melacholic (Earthy) and Phlegmatic (Watery)

In Moonspirit's case we have a predominance of Hot and Dry or choleric. I have noted the Leo placements of Ascendant and Sun (Leo is a Hot and Dry sign and the Sun is a Hot and Dry planet). Saturn is Cold and Dry, Mercury is Dry (being occidental of the Sun). So far, the temperament is very Dry and fairly Hot.

The Sun on it's own (rather than as ruler of the Ascendant or in aspect to a planet in the Ascendant) is evaluated according to the Season of the year. In this case Moonspirit was born in Summer and Summer is Hot and Dry. So we have further testimony for Hot and Dry.

The Moon is evaluated according to it's phase. In this case it is in its first quarter and this is treated as Hot and Moist (the Moon's phases have the same temperature as the seasons). So more Heat but a little less Dry.

The Part of Fortune is in Sagittarius, which is a Fire sign and so Hot and Dry. and lastly the Lord of the Geniture is Jupiter, which has more essential and accidental dignities despite being in detriment. It's position in the eleventh and its conjunction with Venus are important accidental dignities as well as being direct in motion and free from combustion. Jupiter, like the Sun is a masculine planet and is placed in a masculine sign above the horizon in a day birth. It is therefore said to be in Hayz (like the Sun) or appropriately placed for the time of birth. Jupiter is a Hot and Moist planet in a Hot and Moist sign, so it adds to the overall 'hotness' of character but takes away a little of the 'Dryness'

Overall, Moonspirit is a choleric or firey person though this is likely to be somewhat constrained by Saturn on the Ascendant. Whilst the impatience, rashness, agressiveness and action orientation of the Choleric are there they will be subdued or confined by Saturn - there is a dash of melancholy that will hold in those urges, at least for a time. When the dam breaks though it's best to get out of the way The malefic side of Saturn may be tempered by being in the Terms of Venus and, as Venus is in the Terms of Saturn there is some mutual reception between the two. Venus is also sextile to Saturn. This is likely to prevent the 'dash of melacholy' becoming to introverted.

So, we have a basically Choleric person, though one with a control on the harsher side of the firey nature and a control which has something of a benevolent side to it.

 

[Minderwiz]

Part 2

Three further steps can now be taken. The first is to look at the Significator of Manners. We would traditionally start by looking for planets in the first house. There are two here, Saturn and Mercury. As Saturn is so close to the Ascendant, I would give it some priority but the Sun as it's dispositor and Mercury will also have an influence. Neither Saturn nor Mercury is essentially strong in their positions. So Saturn may suggest a more timorous manner than we might expect from a Leo Ascendant, Leo Sun. Lilly quotes Leo as giving overtones of a grave, sober or discreet party, yet a little cruel. Saturn also gives some gravity, though as we've seen above also some melancholy to the manners and a tendency to like being alone.

Mercury adds a little turbulence and inquisitiveness to this - so we have someone who might also be a little greedy for knowledge. Moonspirit should therefore seem a sober well composed individual, a little timorous in dealing with the outside world, yet clearly interested in gaining knowledge, often for it's own sake.

I'll continue with the other two significators in the next part.

 

[Minderwiz]

Part 3

Now we turn our attention to Moonspirit's 'wit' - in the sense of overall intelligence and innate mental abilities. This is read from the positions of Mercury and the Moon. Mercury represens the rational mind, the Moon the irrational mind, the desires, affections and the overall strength of the brain.

In Moonspirit's chart Mercury is weak in essential dignities but very strong in accidental dignities. Mercury is also strong relative to the Moon. In Lilly's terms 'reason shall principally overmaster the other extravagant passions - especially as Mercury is in a 'commanding' sign (one between the Vernal and Autumnal equinoxes, where days are longer than nights) and the Moon is in an 'obeying sign (where nights are longer than days). Mercury is also sextiled by the benefic, Jupiter, whilst the Moon is in opposition to Mars. So we have a strong rational mind. The intuitive mind though may go through phases of quite sharp emotions or impulses.

In terms of general fortune, this would be done through weighing the dignities of the planets. Only the Sun is in the sign of its rulership (and is the Triplicity ruler) - it's also ruler of the Ascendant and planetary hour ruler but is not well placed - nevertheless it has fair overall dignity. It is also the sole dispositor of the chart. Jupiter and Mercury are badly placed by essential dignity but have quite a lot of accidental dignity. Venus and Mars still have a fair level of accidental dignity. Indeed no planet ends up being on the weak side of the strong / weak range. Saturn is probably the overall weakest but does have mutual reception with Venus.

I would conclude that Moonspirit is likely to be moderately fortunate in life and it's unlikely that there will be significantly long periods of misfortune. This does not necessarily mean fortune in money terms - it would include health and happiness, indeed it's quite possible to have a fortunate life and remain poor in money terms. Issues of wealth, in a monetary sense, are the province of the second house.


Lilly also uses the first House and related planets to describe the physical characteristics of the native. Lilly admonishes his reader to remember that country of birth will influence the reading of the chart - Lilly uses the example of Danes and Spaniards to illustrate his point. I'm not going to try this fully here, except to say that if Lilly were judging an Englishwoman of his day, he'd probably go for being on the tall side, fair or reddish hair, and well proportioned, though possibly with a tendency to put on weight and therefore (like all choleric types) needing regular exercise.

 

[Minderwiz]

Further Issues

I've dealt with a traditional approach to temperament, character and outward appearance. The rest of a natal chart reading would look at each area of life - not necessarily in turn. Issues of wealth, estate, career, marriage, health, etc would be looked at. It's probably overdoing things to go through those in any detail, unless there are questions on them. They do, though, deal with the 'real' issues of life (and death).

The purpose of the natal analysis is not so much an exercise in it's own right - most people know what their character is, even if they don't admit it publically. However it does serve as the essential background for other steps.

These relate to making predictions as to the future events and the timing of those events in the life of the native. Lilly uses a variety of techniques for these predictions including, solar returns, primary directions, profections and transits as well as planetary return dates.

I've ignored the outer planets, as Lilly was not aware of them. My feeling is that if he somehow had become aware of them he would have used them - unless or until he found that they didn't yield useful predictions. My feeling is that the crucial issue for him would have been house positions, angularity and aspects made by swift moving planets. Therefore Uranus in Moonspirit's chart would have beenseen as signficant, as would the sextile of Pluto to the Moon and the Moon / Neptune conjunction - the latter two more for predicitions.

Lilly's life overlapped that of Kepler, who invented the minor aspects (called by Lilly 'new aspects,) he certainly used these in his forecasts, though not it seems in his character analysis.

Lilly doesn't make any use of aspect patterns. Indeed aspects seem to be given relatively less importance than they would be today, as demonstrated in Dave's analysis. Aspects from Venus and Jupiter on the one hand and Mars and Saturn on the other are important in terms of favourable or unfavourable outcomes. Aspects between house rulers are used where issued of two or more houses are related - such as looking at illness or career.

I've not been able to draw fixed stars into the analysis to date - mainly because none have come into a prime persepective so far. The Moon is conjunct Antares and in terms of 'wit' this might add a twist of rashness to the emotions and desires.

Finally a word on the 'twelfth House Sun'. Lilly links the twelfth House to 'private enemies, of witches, great cattle such as horses, oxen and elephants, & sorrow, tribulation, imprisonments, all manner of affliction, self-undoing & and of such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them'.

The 'hidden' aspect referred to in the twelfth House Sun thread is a modernism. Dave rejects it in this case and Lilly wouldn't have seen it as 'hiding' in any sense of the word. The Moon rules the twelfth squares or opposition aspects to and from the Moon might be important for twelfth house matters. The Sun as the occupant of the twelfth would find it more difficult to express itself (imprisoned?) but it would be seen as acting behind the scenes, just finding it more difficult to act. Given the Sun's essential dignity, it can overcome this debility, it just requires more effort. The Sun represents the 'vital power in the twelfth Lilly would see the possibility of being maligned or defamed by enemies or even in extreme circumstances 'imprisoned' in some way. As there are none of the various other conditions for imprisonment in Moonspirit's chart, I don't expect that to happen. On the other hand running a horse farm, or practicing witchcraft might well be a source of great success.

 

[moonspirit]

Dear Minderwiz

Thanks so much for adding your expertise to my chart interpretation. I have a little feedback and a few questions if you don't mind.


I do have a temper I think much of that has to do with me being too sensitive. I am also bad with holding grudges.
I have never seen interpretations with terms like hot,dry, moist etc. It is a very interesting approach.
I wanted to ask what is the significance of my 1st quarter moon. Moist and dry equates what exactly.


Also what does accidental dignities mean?


The attributes of the 12th house are interesting. I went to a religious boarding school as a child and sometimes it felt like I was imprisoned. : ) Lots of rules and regulations.


I have always had a strong attraction to mysticism and the paranormal even as a child and have recently been exploring those interests. Tarot being one of them.


Does lilly give physical descriptions related to other areas in the world? The put on weight easily characteristic is quite true and whenever I maintain a regular exercise regimen it falls off easily too.



It will take awhile to fully understand the terminology and meanings of some aspects but this interpretation has been very insightful.

Thanks again
moonspirit