Tansey Ella
btt btt
Reading for the mentally ill or unstable?
gregory
I would certainly say I thought cake was a really bad idea, and try and discourage them. Some people do have trouble doing what they need to. How would I feel if they fell over in a hyper attack after eating it, if I had served it ? I could probably be sued for contributory negligence - that kind of thing does happen.moderndayruth said:
Personal freedom - sure. However, let me also add that I came within a hair's breadth of being sectioned (committed, to US readers !) at one point. If I hadn't voluntarily admitted myself to hospital in the next 24 hours, that was going to happen (I didn't know this till a year later, BTW ! they weren't holding it over me; they wanted me to have the choice if it was at all possible.) For my own protection. It isn't ALWAYS the first essential to have freedom of choice. I am glad I went in of my own free will, but if I hadn't - well, it would have been for my own protection - and sure, I have the absolute right to kill myself - but I wasn't thinking straight; I wasn't remotely capable of thinking straight, and the effect on people I love would have been devastating. I am profoundly grateful that they cared enough to consider locking me up for a while - it was because they all cared - and that includes my doctors, who were wonderful.
Mental illness is an ILLNESS. Not a stigma. But it can mean that others need to take over at times. And it can make us vulnerable in ways we do not see coming. That is no more shameful than having pus in your appendix and having someone take it out. SOME mentally ill people are fine being read for. But I wouldn't want to be the judge of which. And yes - some happy-go-lucky people with no mental health issues will run screaming for the hills after being read for - an experience like that was what stopped me reading for 30 years. But at least they aren't as fragile as they otherwise might be. And of course - most of the time we have no way of knowing - and in those circumstances I might easily find I had read for someone with a mental illness. Fine. But if I were made aware of it - I would at the very least tread very, very carefully.
Somehow things seem to have come to meaning that everyone who has a mental illness feels that anything that happens is a stigma, discrimination. It's like all the new words they keep inventing to "hide" it and make you look "normal". When I was in hospital, a new directive came round that we were not to be referred to as patients, but as clients. We were hacked off. There was a long ward discussion about it. We all felt that this was an indication that there was shame attached, while in fact we were ill, just as someone with a heart condition was ill, and were therefore patients like any other ill people. But the feeling from on high was that we would be more COMFORTABLE not being IDENTIFIED as having mental illnesses. (We all went round for a week telling anyone visiting the grounds that we were nutters and this was a nut house. The staff were falling about laughing; management were not amused... Excuse me; I only just remembered that !!!)
THAT is the stigma, for me. The belief that we want to be called something weird so that No-one Will Know. I am not ashamed; nor should anyone be. But if I end up needing to be sectioned some time in the future - I hope someone will do that for me. Sometimes the decisions have to be taken out of our hands. That's not a stigma, that is common sense.
ilweran
gregory said:
There are still discussions going on about this. At the moment 'Service User' seems common. It used to just be 'User', but people didn't like that. 'Client' and even 'Customer' get mentioned occaisionally. There is also a lot of 'Mental Health Issues' or 'Mental Health Problems' rather than 'Mentally Ill'.
We also don't know anything like as much about mental illness as we like to think. Lots of people who are not mentally ill hear voices, and using diferent diagnostic criteria or being in a different country can lead to a different diagnosis. Quite a few drug treatments have been called into question as well.
I don't read for anyone outside my immediate family - got put off that when I read for someone I was working with at the time and she was determined to connect everything I said to her dead son. If I were to read for others again and people I've met through my current job found out - which isn't likely as I keep it quiet - there are plenty of service users I'd be happy to read for and only one or two who I wouldn't as they never seem that stable.
Tansey Ella
call it what ever you please but there is stigma attacked to seeking treatment for mental illness. The bill that congress passed is intended in helping stop some of that stigma and discrimination by making insurance companies pay just as they would for medical illness. But it will have to go beyond that. the Fundy church i belonged to for so long often viewed it as "demon possession". I was once in a hospital being treated for depression and the doctor and PHD that were running it did exorcisms. That is certainly a frightening thing to see.
Sick people are sick people, they always need others to help them. Mental illness is no different. Until we can receive mental care the same as any medical illness and we do not have to hide our illness due to ridicule- well until then stigma and discrimination exists.
Discrimination does not mean that the ill person does not need treatment, but it means that they are not treated as a lesser person for having mental illness as opposed to cancer. Right now - in the states at least- there is stigma and discrimination against those who are mentally ill and those who seek treatment. It can often times ruin a career. They are often the homeless.
another aspect of mental illness is trying to get actual care for other medical disorders you may have . often if you get a mental illness diagnoses then is is assumed that everything is " in your head". Mentally ill people can often be quite ill from some other illnesses and it is ignored b/c they are mentally ill, maybe unable to tell their doctors what is happening to them, or the doctors ignore things.
Recently a woman died in NYC hospital due to neglect. She was in the psych ER and was there for 24 hours. She eventually fell to the floor and died. it was at least an hour before anyone knew this. they have this up on you tube, the video surveillance . It is an abomination the way this woman was treated.
I have embraced my differences and belong to a board i told you about. It is for what we like to call the Mentally Interesting.
I'll get the link for that incident in NYC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/nyregion/02hosp.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion"%20target="_blank&oref=slogin
here is a youtube video with commentary on it. i warn you it is sad .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lKUwBCIBzA
parity bill
http://panicdisorder.about.com/b/2008/03/08/house-passes-mental-health-parity-bill.htm
Imagine if you did not have family and were so ill you could not tell anyone what was happening to you. that is what happens to the mentally ill many times. they may have once been a productive member of society but due to their illness they may not be able to work. Here in the states it is very difficult to apply for and get SSD( social security disability- for those who have worked) or long term disability. The process is long and difficult and unless someone helps you , well, your next home may be under a bridge. there is so much of that going on. It is a disgrace. We often treat the mentally Ill like animals.
we are still called patients in a in hospital but clients in an out patient setting.
Sick people are sick people, they always need others to help them. Mental illness is no different. Until we can receive mental care the same as any medical illness and we do not have to hide our illness due to ridicule- well until then stigma and discrimination exists.
Discrimination does not mean that the ill person does not need treatment, but it means that they are not treated as a lesser person for having mental illness as opposed to cancer. Right now - in the states at least- there is stigma and discrimination against those who are mentally ill and those who seek treatment. It can often times ruin a career. They are often the homeless.
another aspect of mental illness is trying to get actual care for other medical disorders you may have . often if you get a mental illness diagnoses then is is assumed that everything is " in your head". Mentally ill people can often be quite ill from some other illnesses and it is ignored b/c they are mentally ill, maybe unable to tell their doctors what is happening to them, or the doctors ignore things.
Recently a woman died in NYC hospital due to neglect. She was in the psych ER and was there for 24 hours. She eventually fell to the floor and died. it was at least an hour before anyone knew this. they have this up on you tube, the video surveillance . It is an abomination the way this woman was treated.
I have embraced my differences and belong to a board i told you about. It is for what we like to call the Mentally Interesting.
I'll get the link for that incident in NYC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/nyregion/02hosp.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion"%20target="_blank&oref=slogin
here is a youtube video with commentary on it. i warn you it is sad .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lKUwBCIBzA
parity bill
http://panicdisorder.about.com/b/2008/03/08/house-passes-mental-health-parity-bill.htm
Imagine if you did not have family and were so ill you could not tell anyone what was happening to you. that is what happens to the mentally ill many times. they may have once been a productive member of society but due to their illness they may not be able to work. Here in the states it is very difficult to apply for and get SSD( social security disability- for those who have worked) or long term disability. The process is long and difficult and unless someone helps you , well, your next home may be under a bridge. there is so much of that going on. It is a disgrace. We often treat the mentally Ill like animals.
we are still called patients in a in hospital but clients in an out patient setting.
Nevada
I'm not sure that you understood. I'm not talking about MY personal freedom here, but anyone's. The original question was about a tarot reader reading for someone they have been informed is mentally ill. The whole diabetic discussion was used as an example. One could as easily use heart disease as an example, or high blood pressure.moderndayruth said:
Of course we --- most of us, at least -- care about our family members and feel that we have a little more freedom to give them advice --- though I think it's debatable whether that's caring or interfering and controlling, at times. Everyone's situations and relationships are different.
The discussion isn't, as I understand it, about reading for family members. As a family member I might know whether my schizophrenic brother or my diabetic nephew could handle something -- be it a tarot reading or a piece of cake. Or I may not --- that depends to some extent on the closeness of the family.
Expecting a tarot reader who isn't a family member to have the expertise or intimacy with the situation to make such a determination is in my opinion not reasonable. I also don't think it's within a tarot reader's rights to take on that responsibility for the sitter. However I think a tarot reader does have the right to only read in situations in which she's comfortable. I just hope most don't use mental illness as an excuse, because of stigma or ignorance, when the person would be perfectly capable of handling a reading.
Tansey Ella
It is a lot to expect a tarot reader to read for someone who they know for sure is very fragile.
This is really an ethics discussion. to be an ethical reader involves many things . I might feel it was OK to read for a person ( again i do not read for others ) but someone else might feel they could not. this is a personal decision.
anyone have thoughts about what cards might indicate serious in-balance?
This is really an ethics discussion. to be an ethical reader involves many things . I might feel it was OK to read for a person ( again i do not read for others ) but someone else might feel they could not. this is a personal decision.
anyone have thoughts about what cards might indicate serious in-balance?
gregory
No - I'm sorry; I think I started with the "your" - I meant "your" as generic and referring to anyone's freedom ! (words are a bitch !) I did understand, but messed up my own response and infected those of others !Nevada said:
I wouldn't use it as an excuse not to read because of stigma or ignorance. On the contrary - not as an EXCUSE, but as a REASON, based on personal knowledge and experience. there is - IMHO - no stigma of ANY kind. And if (as someone said above) someone's professional therapist had said it was a good idea I would do it. I would be nervous, but I would do it. But as a lay person, I wouldn't DARE assess whether someone was strong enough. And that might apply as well if someone came in scared and shaky and I had no idea what their mental state was. I might suggest they come back another time.
And which cards might indicate it - all I can say is - that would entirely depend on the reading that came up from the cards drawn ! I don't see one card as always indicating one thing. Like - no the Empress does NOT signify pregnancy whenever it's drawn !
moderndayruth
Not sure you understood the original intent of my post either, that was to say that - in my opinion - it's quite futile starting general discussions on personal freedoms based on rhetorical premises, of course unless one has excess of free time at his/her disposal and doesn't consider devoting it to other causesNevada said:
Tansey Ella
I may or may not have a professional degree, but I would certainly feel it was within my rights as a reader to decide who i might read for. I also think that a lay person is perfectly qualified to decide if they feel someone is too fragile or upset for a reading. that does not mean i have diagnosed mental illness, just that they seem too upset for the reading. It is just common sense.
again how often do we know if someones clearly mentally Ill? ( or as we say on the crazy board, bat shite crazy) perhaps if it was a neighbor or a friend or whatever, but seldom do we know this. I imagine as a reader one might see cards that might indicate if the person was not all that stable. Once someone read for me and drew the temperance reversed. I was actually depressed at the time. the reader and i took it to indicate a bit of unbalance. She explained that the temperance card is a very good card and even with it reversed it did not indicate a serious problem, just a bit of unbalance. I thank her for being that brave, she knew i was able to "hear " this. She was certainly within her rights to not tell me that however.
I also do not think these discussions are futile and a waste of time. I suspect many readers wonder about this and if i was reading i would always consider this aspect . also suspect that many readers deal with emotionally unstable people all the time b/c some people use tarot readers as counselor's.I know i did.
This month the USA congress passed a bill trying to force insurance carriers to treat mentally ill persons the same as other patients. It is only by talk and discussion and people who are outraged by the lack of compassion for others that things get done.
if you have not read the Post about the woman in NYC, do so. also view the you tube. It will give you pause.
parity bill
http://panicdisorder.about.com/b/2008/03/08/house-passes-mental-health-parity-bill.htm
again how often do we know if someones clearly mentally Ill? ( or as we say on the crazy board, bat shite crazy) perhaps if it was a neighbor or a friend or whatever, but seldom do we know this. I imagine as a reader one might see cards that might indicate if the person was not all that stable. Once someone read for me and drew the temperance reversed. I was actually depressed at the time. the reader and i took it to indicate a bit of unbalance. She explained that the temperance card is a very good card and even with it reversed it did not indicate a serious problem, just a bit of unbalance. I thank her for being that brave, she knew i was able to "hear " this. She was certainly within her rights to not tell me that however.
I also do not think these discussions are futile and a waste of time. I suspect many readers wonder about this and if i was reading i would always consider this aspect . also suspect that many readers deal with emotionally unstable people all the time b/c some people use tarot readers as counselor's.I know i did.
This month the USA congress passed a bill trying to force insurance carriers to treat mentally ill persons the same as other patients. It is only by talk and discussion and people who are outraged by the lack of compassion for others that things get done.
if you have not read the Post about the woman in NYC, do so. also view the you tube. It will give you pause.
parity bill
http://panicdisorder.about.com/b/2008/03/08/house-passes-mental-health-parity-bill.htm
Tansey Ella
I think the posts by azarial and the following one were some of the best. simple and complete.
quoted posts below:
I personally would never discriminate against someone due to mental illness. I have suffered from depression in the past and have an anxiety disorder and it has never effected my ability to get a reading or do a reading. In fact tarot has always been very therapeutic for me as I'm sure it has for many others.
know so many people who are depressed that I wonder if it's become normal. :\ I wouldn't read for someone who I felt was violent or out of control. But depression, bipolar, or anyone whose meds are working ... if I wanted to read for them, that certainly wouldn't stop me. I'm no pro though, and only read when/if I feel like it.
There are probably a lot of us on this forum who suffer from some kind of mental instability (for lack of a better term.) I've always thought of the tarot as therapeutic, and it helps me with my panic and anxiety.
There would be some people I wouldn't read for, but those would be decided on a case-by-case basis. It would be people who didn't have the mental capacity to understand a reading anyhow.
Kelly
quoted posts below:
I personally would never discriminate against someone due to mental illness. I have suffered from depression in the past and have an anxiety disorder and it has never effected my ability to get a reading or do a reading. In fact tarot has always been very therapeutic for me as I'm sure it has for many others.
know so many people who are depressed that I wonder if it's become normal. :\ I wouldn't read for someone who I felt was violent or out of control. But depression, bipolar, or anyone whose meds are working ... if I wanted to read for them, that certainly wouldn't stop me. I'm no pro though, and only read when/if I feel like it.
There are probably a lot of us on this forum who suffer from some kind of mental instability (for lack of a better term.) I've always thought of the tarot as therapeutic, and it helps me with my panic and anxiety.
There would be some people I wouldn't read for, but those would be decided on a case-by-case basis. It would be people who didn't have the mental capacity to understand a reading anyhow.
Kelly
