Roll up all you TdM -ers

Rosanne

Is there any documentation of historic readings (if I'm lucky in English)of any TdM readers? Has there been anything that survived prior to 1900. I have read lots of History about the cards and their country of origin but nothing about how they were used. Is there only supposition left? I await with bated breath your replys. Regards Rosanne
 

Fulgour

This may be like asking if axes were historically used
for chopping down trees or making fine furniture...
of course Le Tarot de Marseille served well for playing
card games, it was so widespread and readily available,
but why was it that this deck appeared so frequently,
when any number of simpler styles would have worked
better? I think it has always been, as such, a Tarot deck.

I just wanted to get my two cents worth in before the
historical iconographers prove it was originally a toy. ;)
 

Rosanne

I actually knew they were used as playing cards, but I thought like you there had always been another way of using them, for the reasons you said...Why this deck? So I wanted to know if there was any documentation of actual Tarot readings/ or spreads etc. Thats what I meant by 'use' For example before Rider Waite they must have used TdM? I mean Pamela Colman Smith. I mean it as in- Egypt rose fully formed- no developing culture - that type of query. Regards Rosanne
 

Fulgour

Though their grandmothers probably knew more about
reading Tarot cards, these gentlemen published books:

Antoine Court, Jr. (1719-1784) "Antoine Court de Gebelin"

Jean-Baptiste Alliette (1738-1791) "Etteilla"

Alphonse-Louis Constant (1810-1875) "Eliphas Levi"

Samuel Liddell Mathers (1854-1918) "MacGregor"

Gerard-Anaclet-Vincent Encausse (1865-1916) "Papus"

My appreciation for their work has grown with time and the
awareness that they had their own struggles and ambitions,
but overall their books singular importance is exaggerated.
 

Sophie

Rosanne said:
I actually knew they were used as playing cards, but I thought like you there had always been another way of using them, for the reasons you said...Why this deck? So I wanted to know if there was any documentation of actual Tarot readings/ or spreads etc. Thats what I meant by 'use' For example before Rider Waite they must have used TdM? I mean Pamela Colman Smith. I mean it as in- Egypt rose fully formed- no developing culture - that type of query. Regards Rosanne

I seem to remember reading that Tarot is confirmed to have been used in divination relatively late (17th century) but that since ordinary playing cards were used in divination before that, the inference is that so were tarot cards.

The use of the Marseille is a matter for hot debate - many think, with some justification (from iconography and analogy) that it served orginally as some sort of teaching tool, or aide-mémoire, or, more likely, a demonstation of a spiritual path of initiation - not occult, and certainly open to all sorts of uses (like games and divination) but not primarily designed for games and divination. An interesting analogy, as a friend wrote the other day, would be alchemical iconography, which were printed in books without text and stood for the text, so rich were their symbolism.

The other day a friend and I were visiting a castle nearby. In one of the rooms was a curious late 18th-century contraption - a large wooden box with, at is end, a huge kind of magnifiying glass through which you looked inside the box - at the other end of the box (inside, seen though the magnifier) was a picture of an Arcadian scene magnified several times its size and in 3-D. It occurred to me then that this was a playful child of Newton's studies in optics over a century before. We accept that science will eventually be used to make games (think of the large numbers of sophisticated computer games) yet have trouble applying this concept to the Tarot, which has, in structure and iconography, at least as good a claim as optics to have started as study or demonstration or manifestation of a spiritual kind, eventually to become a game. It's even possible that its original use was abandoned or lost, as the game became popular and new generations of scholars and mystics turned to other means to convey meaning and structure.

Divination - and its modern variation of psychological readings - also turned up some times along the long history of Tarot!

Fulgour wrote down all the well-known Tarot occultists of the 18th and 19th centuries. But I doubt very much if the great readings of the past were ever recorded - just as great theatre performances, they are moments in time. They probably would mean nothing to us today.
 

Jewel-ry

I read somewhere that Napoleon pulled La Maison-Dieu on the day he was exiled to St Helena. Who knows if this is true though!

~
 

firemaiden

Fulgour said:
I just wanted to get my two cents worth in before the
historical iconographers prove it was originally a toy. ;)

Rosanne said:
Is there any documentation of historic readings (if I'm lucky in English)of any TdM readers? Has there been anything that survived prior to 1900. I have read lots of History about the cards and their country of origin but nothing about how they were used. Is there only supposition left? I await with bated breath your replys. Regards Rosanne

Rosanne is asking a very interesting question about whether there are documented readings with the Marseille (not the Eteilla) prior to 1900. The wording of her question carefully sidesteps the thorny issue of what the TdM was 'designed' for.
 

Fulgour

"The Egg or The Hen?"

from:
France Cartes (Grimaud) Renowned French Card Makers:

Two schools of thought conflict concerning the origin of playing cards.
Some think that playing cards have been created just for play activity
and that they have become, with the passing years, a tool for fortune
telling. The others think that the origin is more symbolic and maintain
that they would become playing cards only far later.

continued:
http://www.france-cartes.fr/pages_anglais/origines.htm
 

Rosanne

I might be being obtuse about this, and I appreciate your imput- I gather when the change came in the early ninteen hundred (I am talking about RW) Two people came along and decided to update the Tarot. Before they did, they must have been using Tdm, as people are saying they can see the influences in RW. So they were using it as Tarot. How? Did they do readings for each other? Did they go to a meeting and talk about each Card? Did they recall how their Grandmothers read Tarot? They were extremly erudite, or we would not have RW now. So it followed in my head that there might be some recorded info of method and spread etc, as I know RW did not leap up fully formed.It was based on Tarot as they knew it. (All said as my fingers and brain leap about in jumbled confusion)Thank you Fulgour I will tax my local librarian to get some printed matter in for me. She sees me coming and gets this 'Oh no' look on her face. Regards Rosanne. I am having trouble with time , I stay up late, get up early in the hope I catch you all at some time in cyberspace.
 

le pendu

Hi Rosanne,

I'm not sure if I'm going to help or add to your confusion.

I believe what you are asking is: "Is there information on what tarot readers might have thought the card meanings would have been before the Waite deck was published?"

It is my understanding that the first person to do so was Etteilla, read about him here:
http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_5.htm

I recommend reading, (free online!) the "Tarot of the Bohemians" published by Papus in 1892. This is a clear book of definitions for the TdM published before the Waite deck:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/

best,
robert