Some thoughts on the nature of Card Reading//

[SunChariot]

Then, isn't it possible that we Influence the undetermined future by our act of Reading, as we would alter electron when we try to specify its properties?
Whether it be good or bad would depend on circumstances, and still there would be some modifications.
(The most simple example of this would be -
Mind's subtle changes caused by reading : that would likely alter the future)

I can say that not only is the possible, I have seen it happen in my life. Sometimes the very act of doing a reading on a future event, and of our knowing about it changes our future. I don't know that it happens every time, but it certainly CAN happen.

Let's say if you want something to happen in the future very much and are working towards it. And you have a Tarot reading saying that it will happen in your future. You might think,even very unconsciously, that since the reading said it would happen you can relax now and not have to try as hard. Of course the minute you stop putting as much work into it, that future may not happen anymore.

I won't give you the details right here, but once I did that to myself. The cards had predicted a particular future. Then a different once. I did a new reading to see what had changed and why, and it basically had to do with my knowledge of where my future was heading. It had changed my future somehow.

Babs

 

[Crowqueen]

Actually this forum is TALKING TAROT which means that it is for Tarot discussions - so it would be good if we could keep this discussion about tarot.

Thank you

Sulis - co-moderator - Talking Tarot

Sorry Sulis. I'll get rid of that part if you like. Was the rest appropriate though?

Sorry about the length of threads. Last night I was badly in need of some grounding meditation.

 

[Crowqueen]

"The Ides of March have come...but not gone"

Let's say if you want something to happen in the future very much and are working towards it. And you have a Tarot reading saying that it will happen in your future. You might think,even very unconsciously, that since the reading said it would happen you can relax now and not have to try as hard. Of course the minute you stop putting as much work into it, that future may not happen anymore.

That's the danger of having too much information too soon. Essentially the reason why premonitions of death, assassinations etc come true is that either we scoff at such premonitions, or the medium who presents her information does so in a way that freaks people out or sends them to their deaths determined to prove her wrong.

Having had premonitions of someone winning an election with a very small margin, I was more determined than ever to make it happen (by going out and working hard in the election). Unfortunately it was just the local candidate I'd seen rather than the national party . I'd seen an unfamiliar room, and the national party leader sitting in it eagerly/nervously awaiting the results. I got the margin right (500 votes), but the room turned out to be the local leisure centre where the votes were counted, and the national party leader was only an "archetype" (like, say, seeing the Emperor card coming up and misreading whom it was supposed to represent) representing the local candidate for his party. I didn't recognise the room until the second I walked in there on the night itself and realised that all my hopes for the national party were off, but that we locally had no need to worry. Since I was shattered (working 24/7 - almost - for the campaign) I went home, and promptly started rumours that I'd gone home because I thought the local candidate had lost !

Although the British tarot reader Kris Sky explained to a client who had had a bad reading which warned her not to "take the train": that she was destined/fated to have come to see her before taking the train that would have taken her directly into the path of a bomb. However, the reading was not a success - the woman stormed out when Sky mentioned that she was in danger - and it was only because she had a funny feeling later that she called off the engagement she was planning to take. Statistically speaking there is a significant drop in passenger numbers on days when a major accident or bombing take place, when compared with "normal" days. In my horoscope for 7 July - which I read on the way into London on the morning of 7/7, right into Paddington where I missed the Edgware Road bomb by ten minutes and two streets, it was written "the brightest light casts the deepest shadow". For me I was happy that London had got the Olympics - on 6/7. It was quite ironic that the papers on 7.7 were filled with the "brightest light" when the "deepest shadow" was just around the corner . However the info was so cryptic you couldn't possibly have guessed what it might have been; I had been arguing a lot with people the day or two before but I was going through an awful lot of stress back then so I don't think it was prophetic of anything in the air.

So we can probably assume that premonitions of events which are meant to be avoided happen regularly and to many more people than are actually aware that they are psychic (since I hold to the idea that everyone is psychic in some way - they just don't know it or have learned to tune it out because of disapproval or scepticism).

 

[April]

So are we saying that some future events are decided ahead of time, but others we can change? I still don't find it entirely believable, but it is less depressing. I just tend to think that if EVERYTHING is predetermined, what a boring and pointless universe this is... But again I don't believe it, so I generally stay pretty chipper.

Years ago, someone attempted to reconcile the ideas of free will vs. God's omnipotence for me, but I can't for the life of me remember what she said... It sort of makes me dizzy to think about how both can exist at the same time. If fate and destiny are adjustable can we even call them fate and destiny?

Peace,
April

"Math is hard." - Barbie

 

[SunChariot]

Years ago, someone attempted to reconcile the ideas of free will vs. God's omnipotence for me, but I can't for the life of me remember what she said... It sort of makes me dizzy to think about how both can exist at the same time. If fate and destiny are adjustable can we even call them fate and destiny?

For what it's worth, my point of view is that G-d is always in charge and certainly always omnipotent. And he is there to do what's best for us to help us grow and mature as we are meant to, very much like a parent. Sometimes what is best for us is to try new things, make mistakes and learn from them. Other times we need to be protected from walking into a potentially dangerous situation or from taking a wrong path. Then that path is blocked for us. Obstacles are set in our way that prevent us from taking it.

Kindof like with a young child who's playing happily on the sidewalk with her friends, you let her do her thing. But the minute she tries to run out into a street after a ball, you grab her back and don't let her go. Her choices /freedom become restricted at that point. She may be too young, inexperieinced yet to fully understand the danger, yet the parent sees and understands it. I think it's kindof the same thing, if you know what I mean, between us,G-d , fate and free will. G-d had understandings of why things can harm us that we potentially don't including full knowledge of the future events that can stem from out actions. And even including events that may happen 20 years down the line from an action we take today. None of us can know that.

I guess you can call those times when you try to stray off path, but are prevented as "fate" --if there is only one path left open to us at those times and at those times there is no other choice...but otherwise we are usuallyu left alone to learn what we are meant to. And I believe we are always given what is best for our personal and spiritual growth at that time.

Babs

 

[Crowqueen]

Ah, something we can agree on.

The whole concept of fate/destiny works precisely because ordinary people, not armchair philosophers like ourselves, just get on with their daily business. Some have more impact on "global" events than others, but like the proverbial butterfly even the powerless can flap their wings sometimes and cause a hurricane. This chaos theory works like shuffling a tarot deck: if we just read with the deck straight out of the box, it wouldn't work. We have to shuffle the deck - paradoxically - to get any sense out of it.

As I said on another thread, every clairvoyant has to eat. The payment for food gives money to another. Say they go and spend the money they earn on a gun and rob a bank. The clairvoyant might be able to say that there is going to be a bank robbery somewhere or other, but they won't necessarily receive that information crystal clear, and be able to warn the bank in question, and if they do know, then the bank will say "hey, we're prepared, we have CCTV, and anyway, what do you know? if you're so psychic, why aren't you living in Barbados with a huge lottery win?". So the bank robbery happens - perhaps the police are waiting at another bank? perhaps the robber changes his mind which bank to rob? The robber doesn't really think about anything to do with psychic talent or tarot or whatever, he just fancies having a lot of money and the easiest way to do it is to hold up the NatWest. Therefore we have a gap between the knowledge of what people are going to do, and those who just do it regardless. It's not like everyone has the time or energy or inclination, or even the belief, to sit around thinking about how time works. (If we did no-one would ever do anything and it would be just like reading with an unshuffled tarot deck).

It's not a very scientific theory, but it's a practical one. Marx said that philosophers needed to reconnect their theories with reality (one of the sanest things he ever said, as I am a true-blue Conservative when it comes to politics).

I read a book last night which brought this whole concept home to me very very starkly: a caption in a book about Nostradamus printed ten years or so ago which said, in other words: Although the latitude refers to New York, this doesn't mean that New York is necessarily where this destruction is going to take place. Other "new" cities are on the same latitude, such as the New Belgrade suburb in Serbia (!!!?!!!?). So any idea of New York being destroyed by fire can be ruled out.

Erm, quite. I knew there was something odd when I went up the WTC in 1998. Even if Al-Qaeda got their ideas from the Independence Day movie trailers which showed the Chrysler building being blown up, I still shuddered when I saw those trailers at the same time as being in NYC. Saying I thought something was going to happen three years before it did is pushing it a bit, but nevertheless...

Not even Nostradamus could prevent 9/11. So ironically clairvoyance, future-telling and so on works because people in their innocence assume it can't happen to them, or pay no attention to prophets of doom, or ridicule people like Nostradamus (an elderly friend I went to see last night told me an ancient Scottish seer said he saw ships sailing between Inverness and the Clyde. People thought he was barking mad at the time. Then they built a canal a few hundred years later. Quad erat demonstrandum). There are times when fate decides that some incident can be averted, but in most cases, human arrogance, such as (in literature at least) that of Caesar and the Ides of March, overrides caution advised by seers. Babs' idea of the kid playing in the road sums it up completely. America was complacent about terrorism until 9/11, and Nostradamus evidently foresaw it. Once they had the shock, they took steps to remedy the situation - but not until 3000 odd people died in something that someone in 16th century France had seen in a bowl of water. Thus it is possible to see the future, and by extension, suggests that the future has - in a sense - already happened. If it is decreed in fate/destiny that the person pays heed to warnings of assassination or other calamities, then they will do so.