Source of minors meanings?

[BSwett]

I want to express my confusion.

There just always seems to be a void, a black hole, at the point where one questions why and from where did Waite/Smith come up with the meaning of the pips. I know about the Golden Dawn, and Sola Busca, and Ettiella, but for me, there still is a missing link? When did the Marseille's ten swords stab a man in his back and left him bleeding to death just before sunrise? Who took the five cups and spilled two of them, leaving that poor fellow with a sticky mess to clean up?
I just finished reading Robert M. Place's "The tarot. History, Symbolism and Divination", and my mind grew with excitement and anticipation as I approached the section on A.E Waite's minor arcana. This book is so fantastically full of history and information. Surely Mr. Place is gonna dig into this matter….
After pages and pages on the Trumps, the symbolism attached to them, the sources from ancient times, etc. I found three vague pages on the minors describing only the relationship of the suits with the four elements and the four Jungian functions. In all honesty, the Major Arcana is made up of universal archetypes that need no explanation. One can piece this story together with a little knowledge of history, a dash of intuition and two or three whiskers of a white siamese cat. But the RWS minors and their very specific (and lovely) illustrations are not so easy to cuddle with. Specially when one considers the often conflicting meanings in relation to the drawings.

I've been reading the Marseille trumps for 25 years. They are a big part of who I am, and now I want to get familiar with the minors (Help! This triggers many other questions). At the same time, i just recently started my relationship with the RWS and I love the possibilities this cards present. Still, I've always been a nerd in the way that whenever I get into something, i go deep into it. I get lots of books, I research, I geek out, I ask questions.

This questions are not meant to ruffle any feathers but mine, they come from a very sincere place inside me. Some say that the Golden dawn was a secret sect, and because of this, not all sources and information had to be revealed; the thing is, we are talking about a best seller deck of cards that one can buy on Amazon.com, so if the secret is out lets let the Judgment's trumpet blow and uncover the truth.

I doubt (yet hope) that anyone can just come and post the answers I'm looking for here in this forum, but if somebody wants to point me in the right direction so that I can further feed the fire of knowledge; please. And thank you.

BeeSwax.

 

[BSwett]

I do want to add to this that even though I am questioning this things, and curiosity is leading me to dig and uncovered truths, i do still use the tarot, and it never fails me!

Just after I posted this thread on the forum, i asked the cards 'themselves' for some help on this matter.
Where should I go with this quest, how can I understand the cards better and clear my confusion?

Three cards:

The moon, the four of wands, the nine of pentacles.

Look within, come to peace, trust yourself and the world around you.

I love the cards.

B.

 

[Zephyros]

The actual images are representations of the astrological decans, and not completely P. Coleman-Smith's invention. There used to be a member here by the name of Scion who wrote a fantastic guide to the images and decans, but he stopped giving it out because he is writing a book. More than that I can't really tell you, but this thread might point you in some direction:
tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=193094

As for the GD, all the information is readily available, you just have to look for it.
But it isn't easy. Scion has done his homework, and the sources are rather obscure Latin and Arabic texts. The Picatrix is also a significant influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatrix

 

[BSwett]

The actual images are representations of the astrological decans, and not completely P. Coleman-Smith's invention. There used to be a member here by the name of Scion who wrote a fantastic guide to the images and decans, but he stopped giving it out because he is writing a book. More than that I can't really tell you, but this thread might point you in some direction:
tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=193094

As for the GD, all the information is readily available, you just have to look for it.
But it isn't easy. Scion has done his homework, and the sources are rather obscure Latin and Arabic texts. The Picatrix is also a significant influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatrix

Thank you Closrapexa. This are some good branches to go and explore.
Paz.

 

[Richard]

Attached is a table of the pips from Book T. The Rider-Waite illustrations are interpretations of the card titles. For example, the 4 of Swords' title is Lord of Rest from Strife. The illustration on the card is a visual interpretation of Rest from Strife. The Golden Dawn titles are based on the astrological decans, not the traditional divinatory meanings used by fortune tellers.

 

[BSwett]

Attached is a table of the pips from Book T. The Rider-Waite illustrations are interpretations of the card titles. For example, the 4 of Swords' title is Lord of Rest from Strife. The illustration on the card is a visual interpretation of Rest from Strife. The Golden Dawn titles are based on the astrological decans, not the traditional divinatory meanings used by fortune tellers.

Muchas Gracias LR

 

[Richard]

Muchas Gracias LR

De nada BS.

 

[ravenest]

In the recent decks (Thoth, RW) the minors are pictures made from composite energies by different artists interpreting on different levels.

The composite energies are; the number/sephiroth; the World/suit; the decan it is associated with; and to an extent, the 'astrology' on the card.

The interpretation on different levels; RW seems to show that 'composite energy' as if it was being played out in a scenario; Thoth seems to show an abstract form of that energy itself.

The RW form is interesting and reminds me of little theatres ... and that leads back to the 'Memory Palaces' of Metrodorius that Scion references in his guide.

The decans have been and old way of dividing up the heavens into 10 degree segments of longitude 10 degrees or 2 hours ( I think ). The Ancient Egyptians used them for night ' time keeping' and astrology. Other astrological influences cross fertilised ( Mesopotamia and later Greek - but not really a decan system) to and from and the Egyptian decans who were associated with asterisms and 'gods' and were depicted as anthropomorphic figures and other symbols ruled them.

Later on this was further synthesised via Alexandrian Synthesism and spread to areas like Harran (the source of the Picatrix from the 'Sabians") and then into Islamic culture. Another source aside from the Picatrix was Ibn Ezra and Cornelius Agrippa.

All three sources were typical reference material for the people who developed the GD system.

By now the images and ideas about the decans had become an amazing hodgepodge of fantasmorgorical images, incorporating the past influences and ideas about decans and other systems had been grafted on to them from Judaism.

With Crowley’s concepts of them (see Liber 777) there was further influence, Scion gives a good case for Paul Christian being one.

We also need to throw liber Hemeticus into the mix with Kircher and .... and ... and ...

We end up with these source ideas and ... whoever is working out the deck picks an image and conveys it to the artists, ... I guess .... and we have a minor.

There is another idea in the 'astrology of a card' that is if a card shows a planet on top (like Thoth does) and a sign below, apparently that is not just a reference to the decan (as that is how they are noted), but in some way a more modern astrological association of a planet in a sign means a particular thing.

Not that I get it from considering it 'should' be a decan but Crowley implies it in Book of Thoth in places re the minors. That is; The annotation on a card of say, Venus and Cancer indicates that that card is associated with the first decan of Cancer and all those images and ideas Goetic and Picatixian images and tables in 777 etc ... Yet Crowley in places seems to refer to it as Venus in Cancer. Why or what he actually means is perhaps the subject of another thread?

Or maybe he means both ... an infulence from a decan and an astological configuration.

 

[Richard]

......The decans have been and old way of dividing up the heavens into 10 degree segments of longitude 10 degrees or 2 hours ( I think ).......

The earth's rotational velocity is 15 degrees per hour.

 

[BSwett]

Thank you Ravenest. Really apreciate you taking your time to write such a rich answer on this thread. I might need to get my scalpel out to dissect all this info.
I know it's almost rude to ask for this, but it would be really interesting to have a light example of this collage of ideas. Like taking a minor card and deconstructing its meaning; reverse engineering it's symbolism....
I guess this could be my homework...

Makes me wonder if the hundreds of artists that have cloned th RWS, and used it as a model for their decks are aware of all this information, or if they have just blindly followed suit (pun intended)

I'm also curious if the old world interpretations of the pips, as in the TDM, also where added to this soup, like bay leaf and thyme....

Peace,
BeeSwax