Bernice
My bold. Same thoughts here, I think the printers used whatever was available, and as the cards were used for gaming I doubt they used any colour symbolism at all.
Bee
Tarot de Marseille - Color Symbols
Bee
Bertrand
Hello,
fact is Paul Marteau emphasized a lot the importance of colors in his tarot (colors adapted from the late version of the Conver deck recolored a century Camoin deck). His book is very focused on the psychological aspect of colors, although he barely mentioned (if at all) he created this specific color scheme. This may have had quite an influence on the following litterature.
Regarding the symbolism of the colors you're a bit severe with the cardmakers Bernice ! It seems that certain decks (in particular Vieville) use certain colors (red or yellow) in a peculiarly coherent manner with the engraved lines and their symbolic representations - there's an excellent book about an (argumented) hermetic vision of this deck by Charly Alverda but unfortunately not translated in english.
Anyway I guess you mean that the colors have no separate symbolism, isolated from the drawings, the colors may at best underline the cards lines meanings - which gives them at the most as much symbolism as the lines.
And that being said, it is quite clear that the colors choices were scarce for all the very pertinent reasons mentioned above (technical and economic mainly)
Bertrand
fact is Paul Marteau emphasized a lot the importance of colors in his tarot (colors adapted from the late version of the Conver deck recolored a century Camoin deck). His book is very focused on the psychological aspect of colors, although he barely mentioned (if at all) he created this specific color scheme. This may have had quite an influence on the following litterature.
Regarding the symbolism of the colors you're a bit severe with the cardmakers Bernice ! It seems that certain decks (in particular Vieville) use certain colors (red or yellow) in a peculiarly coherent manner with the engraved lines and their symbolic representations - there's an excellent book about an (argumented) hermetic vision of this deck by Charly Alverda but unfortunately not translated in english.
Anyway I guess you mean that the colors have no separate symbolism, isolated from the drawings, the colors may at best underline the cards lines meanings - which gives them at the most as much symbolism as the lines.
And that being said, it is quite clear that the colors choices were scarce for all the very pertinent reasons mentioned above (technical and economic mainly)
Bertrand
cirom
Proponents of the argument that color choices were made quite deliberately and based on symbolic merit, presumably see it as part of the overall approach to the design of tarot cards, namely that their use of imagery was fundamentally to portray and communicate religious, political, moral etc concepts to a mainly illiterate audience. And that of course such symbolism would have been clearly understood by the people of those times. Values and understanding that can now only be fully appreciated by us today via academic study of the past. But to deny the influence of technical limitations and budget is surely naive.
They may have their charm and character and certainly we admire them through the distance of time, but the technical quality of the woodcuts and line work of Tarot cards were not of particular high quality compared to the standards of the day. Tarot production was not high art where the top artists of the day were commissioned by say the Vatican and its limitless budget.
As I understand it, decks were produced by commercial printers, with an emphasis of the word "commercial". The predominant use of primary colors suggests to me the use of colors that the printer was likely to have had in house, and used on a regular basis, rather than specially made up for the symbolism of blue, red, yellow and green. If budget and capacity (accurate color registration) were not an issue, why were more colors with powerful symbolic associations such as purple not used.
I think part of the problem of color and Tarot is the color Rose of the glasses through which we view much of the past.
They may have their charm and character and certainly we admire them through the distance of time, but the technical quality of the woodcuts and line work of Tarot cards were not of particular high quality compared to the standards of the day. Tarot production was not high art where the top artists of the day were commissioned by say the Vatican and its limitless budget.
As I understand it, decks were produced by commercial printers, with an emphasis of the word "commercial". The predominant use of primary colors suggests to me the use of colors that the printer was likely to have had in house, and used on a regular basis, rather than specially made up for the symbolism of blue, red, yellow and green. If budget and capacity (accurate color registration) were not an issue, why were more colors with powerful symbolic associations such as purple not used.
I think part of the problem of color and Tarot is the color Rose of the glasses through which we view much of the past.
Bertrand
Hello,
Bertrand
By what people exactly ? The scarce examples of texts concerning the Tarots and their descriptions should let us imagine that many people didn't have a clue about what the Tarots represented at the time of the cardmakers (I'm speaking here of the massively produced woodcut Tarots ). See the XVIth century essays published by Depaulis/Caldwell/Ponzi : their authors didn't have more clues than we do know, and they were educated people, so it is safe to assume the illiterate people didn't had more.cirom said:
To our modern eye that may be so. Note that the anonymous tarot de Paris, or the Vieville Tarot show at many places a very talented execution. That being said, it is true that older engravers (for instance in Toulouse or Rouen to stay in France) managed to create finer lines with a more consistent printing quality (well I must admit I suppose so from the rare samples I've seen).
From an other perspective, there might have been symbolic reasons to have these colors in quantities in the first place, which doesn't deny the economic aspect.
Bertrand
cirom
Bertrand said:
If you search Google for 'color symbolism in Tarot" numerous sources will be offered, from older texts to modern day books and blogs. Each offering varying rational and meaning for this topic. Those are the examples I refer to in a general way. To list specific examples is not to avoid the question, its just that there are too many and that is part of my point.
Thats an interesting observation, but in my mind serves to increase my doubts and cynicism even more.Bertrand said:
Bertrand said:
Possibly so, but only if "mystical" related projects was the only kind of work that the printer handled, which I doubt very much. Other commercial work that would have been part of the overall business to make it viable, would not also have required those same color inks just for their symbolic meaning. These primary colors are quite basic and would have been used for general work. That is why I still believe that in many cases tarot decks were more likely to have made use of the inks that were already available as part of the printer's everyday inventory, as opposed to being considered "special" projects that dictated what the printer was ordered to use by the artists.
This is of course just a personal opinion, and based on the same logic and economic realities that to a degree still apply to a print job today (including tarot decks). If I am right to any degree, then it does raise some "emperors new clothes" questions about some other peoples personal opinions and conclusions regarding Tarot color used prior to the development of "process" or full color print technology.
Either way an interesting topic n'est pas ?
Moonbow
I make use of the colours sometimes when I read with a Marseilles but my view when it comes to the making of the cards is that the colours were very much down to the cardmaker, perhaps taking into account their own view of which colours to use (i. e. what the colour blue meant to them) but mostly their consideration would have been the end result and how the colours would work in the printing. I don't believe there was any deliberate esoteric meaning behind the colours chosen, but perhaps personal preference and an understanding of the process and application of the colours was an overall consideration
These days people like Hadar have used colour to add another level of meaning to the cards so that the reader can tell which way is upright for the pips, and what colour represents the past and future etc. but I'm not convinced by anything I've read so far that in the past colour choice was deliberately used for a hidden meaning, to be discovered by the reader.
These days people like Hadar have used colour to add another level of meaning to the cards so that the reader can tell which way is upright for the pips, and what colour represents the past and future etc. but I'm not convinced by anything I've read so far that in the past colour choice was deliberately used for a hidden meaning, to be discovered by the reader.
Bernice
I'm sorry Bertrand, I should have clarified that I meant 'a specific esoteric colour symbolism'. Social & cultural symbolic colours may have been used there & then, as here & now the colours Red & Green (Traffic lights) might be recognised as Stop/Danger and Go/Safe.
Personally have wondered why the central little person in the Angel/Judgment card is blue. Could be that it draws our attention - highlights him/her, or a possible indication that he/she is 'loyal & true'. However I don't know how far back in time, or where, this idea of 'blue and loyalty' might have existed.
Bee
Melanchollic
I don't put any significants on the colors either. Nor do I think there is some 'coded' message in how many balls are on a table, or how many blades of grass there are, etc. These images were all common allegories, Love, Death, Time, Folly, and so on. How the manufacturer chose to depict the virtue of Temperance doesn't matter. It still means the virtue of Temperance.
Besides, the gamblers down at the tavern who were having a round of tarot were too drunk to see the colors anyway.
Besides, the gamblers down at the tavern who were having a round of tarot were too drunk to see the colors anyway.
EnriqueEnriquez
colormeaning (moronic angel)
1.
colors are words
with limited anagrammatic properties.
example:
red = re, ed
blue = lube, be
yellow = lowly, yowl, well, yell, low, ole, woe, yew, lye, owl, owe, yow, ell, we, ow, yo, lo, ye
green = genre, gene, nee, erg, gee, ere, re, en
orange = groan, argon, range, goner, anger, organ, gear, rage, aeon, gore, earn, rang, gone, ogre, roan, ergo, goer, near, nor, nae, roe, ear, nag, ran, ore, ago, rag, gar, one, erg, era, eon, age, ego, oar, are, or, en, on, an, go, re, no, a
purple = upper, pulp, lure, pure, pule, rule, purl, prep, rep, per, pep, pup, rue, re, up
black = balk, back, lack, calk, cab, alb, lac, lab, la, a
white = withe, wite, thew, with, whit, whet, wit, the, tie, hie, wet, hit, hew, it, we, ti, hi, eh, he, I
2.
these anagrammatic properties can be expanded by combining two or more colors.
example:
red + green = reneged, greened, greener, render, renege, degree, gender, erred, greed, green, edger, genre, deer, need, reed, gene, rend, geed, nerd, edge, err, erg, ere, end, red, gee, nee, den, ed, en, re
3.
the whole spectrum of language can be reached by the successive combination of all known colors, or vice versa.
4.
in any sentence, a color scheme can be detected.
example:
an ogre with lube on his back hit a cab with a yowl = orange + white + blue + black + white + black + white + yellow
this is:
an ogre (orange) with (white) lube (blue) on his back (black) hit (white) a cab (black) with (white) a yowl (yellow)
4.
in any color scheme, a sentence can be detected.
example:
green + purple + green + white = genre: pure gene wite
6.
by extension, any synonym for any of the words contained in a color’s name would stand for that very color.
example:
an ogre (orange) = a giant (orange) = a troll (orange)
a cab (black) = a taxi (black)
7.
any time we read a sentence we are inadvertently seeing colors.
any time see a color we are inadvertently reading words.
NOTE: this color scheme is guaranteed to be as useless as any other symbolic system.
All my Best,
e. e.
1.
colors are words
with limited anagrammatic properties.
example:
red = re, ed
blue = lube, be
yellow = lowly, yowl, well, yell, low, ole, woe, yew, lye, owl, owe, yow, ell, we, ow, yo, lo, ye
green = genre, gene, nee, erg, gee, ere, re, en
orange = groan, argon, range, goner, anger, organ, gear, rage, aeon, gore, earn, rang, gone, ogre, roan, ergo, goer, near, nor, nae, roe, ear, nag, ran, ore, ago, rag, gar, one, erg, era, eon, age, ego, oar, are, or, en, on, an, go, re, no, a
purple = upper, pulp, lure, pure, pule, rule, purl, prep, rep, per, pep, pup, rue, re, up
black = balk, back, lack, calk, cab, alb, lac, lab, la, a
white = withe, wite, thew, with, whit, whet, wit, the, tie, hie, wet, hit, hew, it, we, ti, hi, eh, he, I
2.
these anagrammatic properties can be expanded by combining two or more colors.
example:
red + green = reneged, greened, greener, render, renege, degree, gender, erred, greed, green, edger, genre, deer, need, reed, gene, rend, geed, nerd, edge, err, erg, ere, end, red, gee, nee, den, ed, en, re
3.
the whole spectrum of language can be reached by the successive combination of all known colors, or vice versa.
4.
in any sentence, a color scheme can be detected.
example:
an ogre with lube on his back hit a cab with a yowl = orange + white + blue + black + white + black + white + yellow
this is:
an ogre (orange) with (white) lube (blue) on his back (black) hit (white) a cab (black) with (white) a yowl (yellow)
4.
in any color scheme, a sentence can be detected.
example:
green + purple + green + white = genre: pure gene wite
6.
by extension, any synonym for any of the words contained in a color’s name would stand for that very color.
example:
an ogre (orange) = a giant (orange) = a troll (orange)
a cab (black) = a taxi (black)
7.
any time we read a sentence we are inadvertently seeing colors.
any time see a color we are inadvertently reading words.
NOTE: this color scheme is guaranteed to be as useless as any other symbolic system.
All my Best,
e. e.
