Tarot devoid of spiritual applications...

Grigori

I am rereading Wang's book on Qabalistic Tarot at the moment, and one thing he said struck me last time, but I was too caught up in the book to stop and ask for feedback, so am doing it now.

This quote is rooted in qabalah, GD style, but I am hoping it will lead to a broader discussion, hence am posting it here.

Robert Wang said:
The tarot is best used for divination about mundane matters. It is not particularly well-suited for furnishing answers of an important spiritual nature because it is rooted in Yetzirah, although one brings down insight from higher worlds in interpretation (p47)...

To each Minor Card and Decan is attributed a pair of angels, one of whom rules the day and the other rules the night. So each card represents a duality. Here again we return to the idea that the cards are rooted in Yetzirah, the world of Angels, as opposed to the Archangels of Briah or the Gods of Atziluth. The cards are Astral images, illustrating the world of matter below, and symbolically reflecting the worlds of mind and spirit above (p 48-49)

So what you all think? What are the applications of tarot? How far into the spiritual can we reach? Are there boundaries, and if so where and why?
 

divinerguy

In the end, I think Tarot feeds off the energy of the querent. If you have a querent who is tuned in to other spiritual planes, I think you can tap into those.

However, if your querent is keyed into the mundane or is simply not very deep, your reading is not going to be very deep. That, in my opinion, is why readings for skeptics go nowhere.

If you have no querent, let's say a reading for a situation or a world crisis, I think you need to be more circumspect in your interpretation. Are you actually getting a valid picture, or is the reading feeding off your own energy? Something to think about.
 

Cerulean

It sounds like the discussion pertains to a belief of the lesser angels

...and if you are a Western-style student of older GD--perhaps it is a classical 19th-20th century idea of the "Golden Dawn" model?

I am not certain, but a quick search on Amazon suggests he has much information from Israel Regardie. But as a reference, people recommend Robert Wang first.

Robert Wang is always mentioned respectfully. I'm not always certain how to figure him out. His Jungian Tarot seemed to be, from what I remember, about an analytical and behaviorist model. I kept his Golden Dawn Tarot for reference and a picture of 1970's-1990's snapshot of this 'model' of tarot.

And such a group of those interested in GD historically had classes, journals, notebooks and organizations on their rituals and spiritual disciplines...similar to an organized church/small study groups. This is my own small thoughts, not direct knowledge.

Sorry, I'm wandering away from your personal question. To be honest, I believe he's right in the broader view that if you have spiritual affinities to certain belief systems such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, cultural divinities, Paganism, these are traditional and known ways to track a spiritual pilgrim's path. These practises don't necessarily consult tarot cards for tapping into a personal affinity with the higher divine.

Given a broader view, then the use of tarot is used as a pragmatic mirror on quieter reflections. It may be so for me, right now. But other people can break ground and 'tradition' at any time!

Hope I answered your question--thanks for the interesting possibilities.

Regards,

Cerulean
 

tarobones

a crock

sorry, but I think that's a crock. I have used Tarot almost exclusively for spiritual, inner work, as have many others, as well as have many authors encouraged us to look beyond mere "prediction". Actually, I believe that the tarot is not particularly well suited for prediction. I could not hold a more contrary view. Peace and blessings................Michael
 

Cerulean

That's a great thing, Tarobones and others...

I'm so glad to hear from those who have done the spiritual connection with tarot. To you, does it matter which deck that you use to connect with your spiritual aspects? It may seem a silly question to you.

I added the question if someone decides to chat about the spiritual--is there a deck that draws this out of you? But I'm going to open a separate thread for this, as I realize it's a deck choice that I'm curious about...I'll share mine at the moment and my own thoughts...

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=47494

My best regards and delight in hearing this-

Cerulean
 

MareSaturni

I think holding to both extremes is wrong. IMHO, you cannot see the tarot as tool for exclusive spiritual things, since we live in a mundane, materal world (and you won't buy a deck if you don't work to have money). But i don't think the tarot applies *only* to the mundane things, since many of us have a spiritual side (and i'm not talking about religion only) and a spiritual 'journey'.
But i don't throw rocks at those who 'choose sides': the reader/student takes from tarot what interests him/her. If he happens to be more interested in mundane things, he'll use the tarot to suit his need. If spiritual matters and deep things are why he uses the tarot, it's okay.

I personally look for a balance - as i said above, i believe we must deal with both sides. The tarot is complex enough to help us to deal with many sides of our lives...why not enjoy this?
AND, i believe that if you plan to read more professionally, for other people, you have to be prepared to work with mundane and spiritual things. People have always asked me more (and i'm no professional, i read for friends/family) "is he cheating on me?" or "will i get this job?" than "how can i find spiritual elightenment?".

My two cents ;)

:TPW Yuko
 

tarobones

which deck

I believe that any deck that one personally connects with will be the one to use for spiritual work. They are all wonderful and they are all tarot, even though they are so very different. Which deck is calling to you? That is the one which will guide you for your inner work. BB, Michael
 

noby

Well, it depends on what kind of spiritual work you're talking about. If you're talking about the spiritual work of overcoming the hidrance of the ego-sense, then there's really little tarot cards can do in that respect. It takes hard, simple training of the mind, through sitting meditation, magickal practices, or whatever it is one does along those lines.

However, I think the tarot certainly can orient us towards spiritual realities. Many have discussed the tarot as a map of the structure and organization of the universe, and that's actually one of the ways I find it the most compelling, as a gateway to contemplation of how it all fits together. My current work with the Crowley Thoth tarot is very much centered in spiritual and existential questions.

Further, I think readings themselves can be geared towards spiritual topics. It depends on how one reads the cards. If one reads them more concretely, it's going to limit the number of meanings the cards can have. But I tend to read them more abstractly, which means that one single reading can address the mundane issues of daily life; the larger patterns of my life; the even larger pattern of human lives in general; and the yet even larger pattern of the way all phenomena unfold in the universe, the nature of consciousness and spirit and matter and the relationship among them.

And not only can tarot cards address all these different things, but they can address them all at once! A single three-card spread can suggest to me possibilities for the moods I'm going to feel that day, what's going to happen with my relationships over the next few weeks, and where I am in my spiritual practice, as well as point me to the general nature of the cosmos, which can then point me to how to use the wisdom of that general principle to make better decisions in my life... So the mundane and spiritual issues are intertwined and spill back and forth between and among one another. The mundane can point us to the greater spiritual principle, and the spiritual principle can point us back to how to live out the mundane realities of our lives, which ultimately aren't mundane at all.

When I see a card such as, say, the Three of Swords, I can see it as signifying "mundane" sorrow, a suggestion that I will feel a little depressed or experience some disappointment that day. But then I can also see it as a reminder of the relationship between the mind and heart, and the larger spiritual truth that sorrow and joy are closely interrelated, that there is a core of sorrow in every joyful experience, and a core of joy in every sorrowful experience, and it's all about having an open heart and letting love in. And letting love and sorrow in can be something that happens in a very concrete way as well as a larger, more universal pattern of understanding and responding to the world.

So in the end, it's really just a matter of how you read the cards and what they mean to you, not the cards themselves.
 

tarobones

clarification

noby wrote *Well, it depends on what kind of spiritual work you're talking about. If you're talking about the spiritual work of overcoming the hidrance of the ego-sense, then there's really little tarot cards can do in that respect. It takes hard, simple training of the mind, through sitting meditation, magickal practices, or whatever it is one does along those lines.*
I am wondering what is the difference between Tarot and spiritual practices and sitting meditation, magickal practices, or whatever....It seems to me that overcoming the hindrance of the ego-sense is precisely what spiritual practices do. And the tarot images, in themselves, are full of powerful transforming energies. Contemplation of the images produces much inner change, it seems to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding the comment. Thank you ahead of time for clarification. BB, Michael
 

noby

tarobones said:
I am wondering what is the difference between Tarot and spiritual practices and sitting meditation, magickal practices, or whatever....It seems to me that overcoming the hindrance of the ego-sense is precisely what spiritual practices do. And the tarot images, in themselves, are full of powerful transforming energies. Contemplation of the images produces much inner change, it seems to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding the comment. Thank you ahead of time for clarification. BB, Michael

If you want to build up your triceps, but when you go to the gym, you only use the hamstring machine, you're not going to build up your triceps, no matter how hard you try.

In sitting meditation, whenever the mind drifts into discursive thought, one brings it back to the point of focus, which for me, is the sensation of the breath in the hara (spiritual center in the lower belly). This is a practice which helps develop the "mental muscles" which give one the power to resist being in thought all the time, to bring the mind back to the direct experience of the moment. That which creates the false sense of separation, the sense of self, is the discursive mind, the mind which analyzes and talks to itself all the time.

Tarot cards may help one organize one's thoughts about spiritual realities, which makes them a powerful tool in a life of spiritual inquiry and practice. But this sort of thing does not do what meditation does. Meditation works to strip us of our concepts, whereas working with the tarot works either to give us new concepts or consolidate and organize our pre-existing concepts, whether they are concepts about our life or about the spiritual reality of the cosmos.

Even if one were able to simply treat the tarot cards as images devoid of some conceptual meaning (which, of course, would make it impossible for one to "read" with them or use them as guides to mapping the universe), the images are still a sort of information. More information may help point us in the direction of how to go beyond seeing things in terms of information, but it's not going to actually do the work of freeing the mind from its addiction to information.

Having hamstring muscles allows us to walk to the dumbbells we'll lift in order to sculpt our triceps, but working the hamstring muscles isn't going to simultaneously work our triceps.