Tarot in the Middle Ages History

The crowned one

Time for me to just follow the thread with enjoyment and leave my thoughts to myself. (Not that anyone had much to say about my posts anyways ;))

Still enjoying your personal opinions tho. This is a fascinating thread on many levels.
 

Sophie

EnriqueEnriquez said:
I have come to understand that you simply don’t like this evidence.
I think you don't like the evidence of a magico-religious system that is - as yet - unexplained. You want certainty, absolutes, and tarocchi is certain. But the game of tarrocchi came later, and that you know too. Dummett knows it.

If I understand correctly, you are not even willing to say “we acknowledge the available historical references, but we prefer to think otherwise, so, we will keep the issue of Tarot’s original purpose open.” You are basically saying that, until someone probes the contrary, Tarot may have been created with divination as its main purpose, and this is a fact that has been overlooked because historians hate diviners.

Am I right?
Divination? No. What I am saying is that the trumps are full of magico-religious imagery. That such imagery had never, before, been used in gaming. That we have no evidence of gaming with the first trionfi decks. Tarrocchi came later, and changed the names of the cards from trionfi to tarocchi. But there are many uses a magico-religious image can be put to, apart from divination and games! So the first question to ask is - what was such imagery generally used for?

Teaching and illustration.

Those were the general, daily uses for such images in 1420. Neither divination nor gaming.

(I am separating, as you see, the question of original purpose, from the quesiton of later use - in which divination fits, and I think, gaming too).

Now, it's entirely possible that the proto-trionfi trumps were made as some kind of light-hearted teaching/illustration tool in the courts Italy, and some bright spark started to toss them around in a game to make learning and conversation more interesting. The Italian courts thrived on such learned play - there are many examples of it, in reported conversations. I think that's the likeliest development. Then someone else put them with some playing cards, and before you know it, we had a game that was also a teaching tool. The grown-ups were happy because their children played improving games, and the young people were happy because they get a bright new colourful game without having their parents on their backs.
 

Sophie

firemaiden said:
gambling and divining were interchangeable? Can you elaborate?
Rosanne wrote about it on another thread. The word "wager" was used for both in the 15th century, and kwaw has elaborated on ordeals and chance in this thread. Trial by chance was still common in the 15th century.

But we'd need some scholar of 15th century Lombardian to illuminate us on the use in the North of Italy at that time.
 

philebus

Unfortunately, the earliest trumps we have are appended to a pack of playing cards. Do we have any evidence for 'proto-trumps' that were not so appended?
 

Sophie

philebus said:
Unfortunately, the earliest trumps we have are appended to a pack of playing cards. Do we have any evidence for 'proto-trumps' that were not so appended?
My point still stands, whether they are appended or not. The imagery appearing on trionfi cards were used for teaching and illustration. What became a game therefore didn't start as such, but evolved into one - most likely as a light and enjoyable form of teaching (since that was the role of such imagery, after all), which became purely play as time went on. Or are you suggesting that a game was pulled out of a hat, sui generis?
 

Starling

One of the interesting things from the FAQ was the statement that printers printed both playing cards and religious cards. Personally I'd expect that the major arcana came out of the religious card tradition since that is what they look like to me.

We spoke about teaching and illustration, but we haven't talked about prayer or meditation.
 

jmd

What a pleasure to read this thread after being away awhile.

Quite frankly, reading through the whole thread, and trying to grasp some key points or signposts in its various meanderings, I am left to wonder what the central concerns, problems, and points are.

On the one hand, there is the obvious anti-'occult' orientation of the early Dummett as especially espounded in his Game of Tarot. I honestly do not think that just because he was faced with a very particular historico-social situation, during which so few books addressed tarot from a more 'serious' historical perspective, means that he would not also now consider the importance placed on the social setting in which trump images emerged.

That was not the point of his work then, nor some of his later work - and in any case he remains one extreme (and a great grounding) from which to expand.

If the question is 'what historical evidence do we have of tarot used for divination in its earliest phases of development?' then the response is basically as provided by kwaw with the quote from tarotpedia: in essence, not much at all, and purely conjectured.

How do we 'know' it was used as a game? in a strict sense, we could say we do not 'know' - any more than we 'know' that the Earth orbits the Sun. But surely circumstantial evidence, as already pointed to by Enrique clearly shows: here is a deck that is an expanded deck seemingly derived from the Mamluk deck and to which is added a series of Trumps, that within a relatively short time results in various established written rules for play.

Quite frankly, I would have thought that written rules are not as important to show its gaming aspect as the artifact itself.

With regards to the trumps themselves, do they reflect more than simply a fifth suit that could have been represented by another item (such as shoes, perhaps!). Still, we have here a period during which miniatures were also in fashion, so why not cards incorporating something intrinsic of the period?

Does that mean they are devoid of symbolic content and meaning? No - on the contrary - they use and include all the rich glorious allegorical and symbolic content of the times. Does this therefore mean that they are intended to not be primarily used for gaming? of course not - but a game does not have to be without an internal rich backdrop. After all, even the Mamluk decks contained quotes, did they not?

What I fail to understand in this thread is what is actually being disagreed on.

On the one hand, I read it that it is possible that right from the start, 'divination' was used - and I do not see anyone disagreeing with this.

On the other, it seems, and this is the part I am unsure I have read properly, that because it can be used for divination, it was possibly designed with that in mind. If that is the suggestion, then I find that frankly out of synch. with the times at hand: it is far more likely that a game designed at the time incorporates a wealth of allegorical imagery, without intent that it be used for 'fortune-telling' - but rather used for gaming and, as the times would suggest, also allow, at leisure, reflective instruction. This does not mean that the deck as game is designed for other than deck-as-game, but rather that 14th and 15th century France and Italy had a far more integrated and rich sense for imagery than we appear to currently have.

It's a fascinating thread... but geez it's a difficult one to enter!
 

stella01904

EnriqueEnriquez said:
OK, let me see if I got it all right.

So far we have two references from 1700-something in France that shows how the purpose of games in Renaissance Italy was to practice divination and to conspire against the church.

Could someone tell me in which point of history games got derailed from this purpose and became just about fun and money?

Thanks in advance,

EE
lol. (waves) This thread is a toolbox. :smoker:
Thanks for making my morning!