'Tarot' meaning 'hole-maker'?
ravenest
The thread is about ‘hole maker’, yeah? What is it making the whole in?
Sometimes a flat card … sometimes a board … sometimes a thick board … sometimes a thick board/solid box … sometimes a box ... a box with holes made in it.
The tool that makes the whole … like an auger (post 1)
Cribbage, mancala … the links are in post 1
Here is a box with holes in it … it is a cribbage board
http://www.searchamateur.com/pictures/antique-fancy-cribbage-board-2.jpg
board or box turns into sheet or plate ; post #8
A ‘layer’ something added on to what is now underneath or developed from it – in geology a regolith … the underlying question ; is the ‘board/ box/ sheet game’ the ‘bedrock’ and did the card game develop from that or are you saying the cards are the bedrock and the first layer and if we take that away we are left with paper … I am wondering if you reject the original ideas that if you take the cards away you end up with the board of box game with holes in it. IE what happened to the box with the holes in it?
I am not going to go through all the other posts and continue with this … I thought you would have read them and followed the links and understood but …. <shrug>
If that doesn’t explain it I am finished here, as technically, asking what someone is talking about or explaining the discussion and not the topic is meta-discussion and the moderators have asked me not to do it.
Sometimes a flat card … sometimes a board … sometimes a thick board … sometimes a thick board/solid box … sometimes a box ... a box with holes made in it.
The tool that makes the whole … like an auger (post 1)
Cribbage, mancala … the links are in post 1
Here is a box with holes in it … it is a cribbage board
http://www.searchamateur.com/pictures/antique-fancy-cribbage-board-2.jpg
board or box turns into sheet or plate ; post #8
A ‘layer’ something added on to what is now underneath or developed from it – in geology a regolith … the underlying question ; is the ‘board/ box/ sheet game’ the ‘bedrock’ and did the card game develop from that or are you saying the cards are the bedrock and the first layer and if we take that away we are left with paper … I am wondering if you reject the original ideas that if you take the cards away you end up with the board of box game with holes in it. IE what happened to the box with the holes in it?
I am not going to go through all the other posts and continue with this … I thought you would have read them and followed the links and understood but …. <shrug>
If that doesn’t explain it I am finished here, as technically, asking what someone is talking about or explaining the discussion and not the topic is meta-discussion and the moderators have asked me not to do it.
ravenest
cross posted
Debra; ... THANK YOU
It just seemed so clear if anyone had read post 1 they would know.
Is Mercury retrograde?
Teheuti
I never before saw a cribbage board that was a box, although I see from your picture that there is one. Personally, I doubt that the "tarot" came from cribbage since cribbage didn't appear until the 17th century.
Yes, I saw that post but it didn't seem like a viable argument based on anything historical.
Your asking me "if you reject the original ideas that if you take the cards away you end up with the board of box game with holes in it" and therefore "What happened to the box with holes in it?" seems to be based on a premise that Tarot began as a "board of box game with holes in it." I don't see any evidence that this is so, despite what is said in that one post.
Yes, I reject the whole idea of the "bedrock" of Tarot being a box.
I do think that the word Tarocchi may reference the marks made in the gold leaf such that it resembled the pitted skin of a certain kind of orange - the "tarocco orange," which name derives from a hammer technique (taroccata) to make marks in leather and metals.
Rosanne
I am curious about this.
It would seem if this is true, then Tarot has been named from 'bespoke' handmade cards i.e. The Visconti etc. I find it hard to believe that those hand-painted with gold leaf cards had no precedent in woodblock card or the like. I have a bespoke monopoly set- which has been made as a copy of the game already popular. This would seem the most logical way- given the expense of the luxury sets.
~Rosanne
Teheuti
I also don't accept the Mancala board as "a box with pegs" from which Tarot might have come: "Although the games existed in pockets in Europe—it is recorded as being played as early as the 17th century by merchants in England[citation needed]—it has never gained much popularity in most regions, except in the Baltic area, where once it was a very popular game ("Bohnenspiel"), and Bosnia, where it is called Ban-Ban and still played today. Mancala has also been found in Serbia, Greece ("Mandoli", Cyclades) and in a remote castle in southern Germany (Schloss Weikersheim)." Wikipedia.
Yes, noddy is older than cribbage but it is sometimes called cribbage-played-without-the-board. It had nothing to do with holes and pegs.
This notion that timing and dates have no consequence is very strange - that items from the 17th century surely were the source of things in the 15th century and that we might want to look earlier than the 14th century for origins of Tarot (as if Tarot already existed in the 14th century - but then what's a century or two when talking about things that old?).
Yes, noddy is older than cribbage but it is sometimes called cribbage-played-without-the-board. It had nothing to do with holes and pegs.
This notion that timing and dates have no consequence is very strange - that items from the 17th century surely were the source of things in the 15th century and that we might want to look earlier than the 14th century for origins of Tarot (as if Tarot already existed in the 14th century - but then what's a century or two when talking about things that old?).
Teheuti
Robert O'Neill also believed that woodcut decks would have come before the gold leaf cards, and it seems a viable theory, although so far no evidence of a woodcut deck this early has been found.
Also, remember that the cards were called by different names. The oldest term seems to be trionfos. Then the cards were called tarocchi. The word spelled "Tarot" doesn't appear until later.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trionfi_(cards) thanks to Huck Meyer:
"The first known use of the name Trionfi was in February 1442, in the account books of D'Este court of Ferrara,[1] when the painter Sagramoro received money for the production of four playing card decks."
"The names Taraux and Tarocchi appear according current Tarot research for the first time in the year 1505 parallel in Avignon (France) and Ferrara."
"It's reported, that Bianca Maria Sforza brought cards from Italy to her wedding with Emperor Maximilian in 1494. The cards were intensively discussed and admired at the evening before the wedding night."
ravenest
THANK YOU !!! One point: "What happened to the box with holes in it?" seems to be based on a premise that Tarot began as a "board of box game with holes in it."
Yes, that seems to be one of the premises of this thread that it had some sort of relationship to Tarot.
Cribbage board /box is a handy ref pic there is similar that predate Cribbage and tarot ...there is actually an ancient Egyptian game based on a similar board or box with movable markers ... but I am NOT suggesting that as it might be seen as ' historical proof' that tarot came from Egypt
Some might.
Teheuti
In the first post I read that something to do with cribbage or noddy was one possible etymology among many that were mentioned by Kwaw. The only point that was much discussed by others was related to "hole-making." I don't see anywhere in the discussion where "BOX" (with or without holes or pegs) was suggested as the "bedrock" of Tarot.
Rosanne
I used the word 'Tarot' on the understanding that it is related in English to Taraux and Tarocchi. It would seem to me that a possible understanding might come from the Fool or Fou as a holemaker in the game.
That is in the scheme of things is a small audience, but I agree they would be admired. I admire them today, if they were the cards on display (Visconti perhaps). By 1494 cards were well spread in the gaming public I would have thought.
With concerted effort the threads can be dragged back to their /it's intended purpose.
I keep trying.
~Rosanne
