The Four Humours

[kwaw]

EDIT: Been searching. Cannot find the mis-translation post. From memory, it was to do with translating from latin to ..... french (I think it was french...). Plus the translators name was mentioned -----. (pulling hair...)

As far as I am aware Jean Gosselin wrote in French, not latin. See above link** for front cover of his book La Signification de l'ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique...

...In the meantime Marco posted a link to an english translation (old english) of Cesare Ripas' 'Iconoglia'. The four humours are referred to as Complexions. http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripa015a.htm

Ripa and the four directions may also be of interest:

Mezzodi : SOUTH*
A Blackmore Boy; a Sun upon his Head, surrounding him with its Rays; upon his Girdle are the signs Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn: Arrows in his right hand, and in his left, a Branch of Lotus. The zone wherewith he is girded, denote the meridional signs. The Arrows, the Sun's penetrating into the bowels of the Earth. The Lotus, at the Sun's beginning to appear, it appears out of the water; and according as the Sun ascends, so does it; at Noon it stands upright; and so, in the afternoon, it follows the Sun until it enters into the water again. Cesare Ripa, Iconlogia, Italy, 1593

Arrows=Batons?
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10060

Oriente: EAST*
A pretty youth, with golden locks; a splendid Star over his head; a scarlet robe interwoven with pearl; his girdle is embroidered with Aries, Leo and Sagittarius: holds flowers in his right hand just ready to blossom. The Sun is risen; the verdant, pleasant plants, and birds warbling out their notes: in his left hand, a perfuming pot. 'Young' denotes that this is the infancy of time; the golden locks, the sun-beams. The star is Lucifer. The jewels, that they come from the East. The flowers, that the sun-beams appearing in the East, the fields smile, and the flowers open. The perfuming pot shows that sweet odours come from thence. Cesare Ripa, Iconologia, Italy, 1593

Perfuming pot=Cups?
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10061

Settentrionale: NORTH*
One as Man's estate; of a proud aspect; ruddy complexion; fair hair, blue eyes; in white armour; seems to clap his hand on his sword; standing as if he would look upon Ursa Major and Ursa Minor at the same time. The sky cloudy, with frost and snow. His habit of body denotes the quality of the cold climate that makes men have a good stomach and quick digestion. His posture, the bravery of the Northern people, by relation of their abounding with blook. His looking upon two stars, as being fixed stars, in the North, which never set. Cesare Ripa, Iconlogia, Italy, 1593

Sword=Swords!
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10062

Occidente: WEST*
An old man in a russet garment, with a red girdle, in which are Gemini, Libra and Aquarius. He is muzzled; a star on the crown of his head; his right arm extended towards the Earth, with his little finger shows the West part, where the Sun sets; with his left holds a bundle of Poppies. The air duskish, and bats flying. His garment denotes the Sun's setting; and almost deprived of light. The star, Hesperus, over his head, as appearing in the wst, in the close of evening. The Poppy, sleep: being a soporiferous plant. Cesare Ripa, Iconlogia, Italy, 1593

By default poppy=discs? [By virtue of the round appearance of the open flower]
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10063

Cesare Ripa, Iconlogia, Italy, 1593 An online copy of English edition here:

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripatoc.htm

Kwaw

*Previously posted in thread here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=775492#post775492
on 28/04/2006

**
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/enseignes.htm

 

[kwaw]

On the basis of flow suggested by the upward and downward birds from the jars in the figures hand one could make a correlation with the suits on the basis of the pips traditional ascending and descending orders, and of their traditional division into two sets of male/female, good/bad. Like the traditional division, the rising side is male, just as the male suits (black/long) ascend in order; the falling side is female, just as the female suits (red/short or circular) descend in order.

The spring and summer signs (aries to virgo) and humors (sanguin and choleric) that flow upwards with the suits in ascending order, ace to ten, the black suits (clubs and swords) of the french suited cards and long suits (batons and swords) of the latin. The autumn and winter signs (libra to pisces) and humours (melancholic and phlegmatic) with the suits in descending order ten to ace, the red suits (hearts and diamonds) of the french suited cards, short suits (coins and cups) of the latin.

In early texts on cards we find that two suits ascend in rank, and two descend in rank, just as "there are daemons who lift their souls to higher things and others who deflect them towards lower things..."

"Siquidem Egyptii, quos sequuntur Origenes et Numenius et Porphyrius, multos aiunt esse deamones qui ad superiora animos erigunt, multos etiam qui ad inferiora detorquent..."*

According to Johannes von Rheinfelden (1377/1429) "Four Kings are depicted on four cards, each of whom sits on a royal throne. And each one holds a certain sign in his hand, of which signs some are reputed good, but others signify evil."

The kings on two of the suits hold their emblems upwards, and two down.

And as there are evil suits and good suits, so there were considered to be good and evil directions; the best being east, the worst west, south good, north bad:


"...pessimos autem in occidente daemones esse, in septentrionali etiam plaga malos, bonos in meridionali, optimos orientalem colere regionem."*

Such is an example of correlations being made between rising/falling, good/evil and directions east~south / west~north in Platonic theology.

Kwaw

*Indeed, the Egyptians maintain - and they are followed by Origen, Numenius, and Porphry - that there are many daemons who lift their rational souls towards higher things and many others who deflect them towards lower things. They assert that the worst daemons are in the west; that those in the north are bad too; that the good are in the south; and that the very best inhabit the east.

Platonic Theology X, II, 3., by Marsilio Ficino trans., Allen, Michael J. B.

 

[Gypsyspell]

Thanks Kwaw, for your interpretation for the engraving for which i have no,and have found no further information.
Also for all other information on this topic.

 

[kwaw]

In the meantime Marco posted a link to an english translation (old english) of Cesare Ripas' 'Iconoglia'. The four humours are referred to as Complexions.

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripa015a.htm

Click 'next page' to see the pics.

The purse/coins with 'melancholy' and earth there would seem a better fit with Gosselin and traditional corresponces between French and Latin suits (tiles/earth/coins) ; I suppose there is as much variation in history as in modern times by which to justify ones preferences...

EDIT: Been searching. Cannot find the mis-translation post.

After double checking it does not appear to be a mis-translation; and without reference otherwise will continue to consider that it is not.

 

[Bernice]

Here's the 15th century woodcut from the thread link that I posted earlier. Published by Nicholas Le Rouge, Troyes, c1495.

Notice what the figures are standing on.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x172/melanchollic_photos/Humourbeasts.jpg

Emblems.......................what the figures are standing on.

Sword & lion = ..............fire
Monkey & Hawking = ......air
Coin purse & sheep = .....water
Staff & pig = ................earth

Bee

 

[kwaw]

Here's the 15th century woodcut from the thread link that I posted earlier. Published by Nicholas Le Rouge, Troyes, c1495.

Notice what the figures are standing on.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x172/melanchollic_photos/Humourbeasts.jpg

Emblems.......................what the figures are standing on.

Sword & lion = ..............fire
Monkey & Hawking = ......air
Coin purse & sheep = .....water
Staff & pig = ................earth

Bee

Posted a link to it already above in post 17. As I said, one can look to historical variations to justify whatever one's personal preferences (without misinterpretation or misrepresentation of sources such as stating Gosselin made statements/correspondences that he clearly did not).

 

[Bernice]

Kwaw; Posted a link to it already above in post 17. As I said, one can look to historical variations to justify whatever one's personal preferences (without misinterpretation of misrepresentation of sources such as claiming Gosselin makes statements that he clearly did not).

To whom are you addressing this post? Clearly not me, because at no time have I claimed that Gosselin made a mis-translation.

Yes, it does seem to be a universal trait to "look to historical variations to justify whatever one's personal preferences" are.

Bee.

 

[kwaw]

To whom are you addressing this post? Clearly not me, because at no time have I claimed that Gosselin made a mis-translation.

Yes, it does seem to be a universal trait to "look to historical variations to justify whatever one's personal preferences" are.

Bee.

???
In post 7 you state:

The earliest known written connection between card suits and the four elements is in La Signification de l’ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique (1582) by Jean Gosselin.


Tiles ...............Batons..........Earth = Melancholic

Clover .............Coins.............Water = Phlegmatic

Hearts .............Cups.............Air = Sanguinic

Pikes ...............Swords..........Fire = Choleric

Gosselin does not in fact makes any reference to latin suits or humors, failing to distinguish between what he did say and recent qualifications, additions and commentary does amount to a misrepresentation.

It was also yourself who stated in this thread without reference that Gosselin was mistranslated and that 'tiles' should be related to 'clubs':

Hi Kwaw,

It was later discovered that the translation of Tiles to Diamonds was a mis-translation. The word 'tiles' apparently refers to the suit of what we call 'clubs'.

which (beside being incorrect as far as I am aware until you care to reference a source that proves it otherwise) appears to me to make a complete hash of his reasoning, which is clearly related to the correspondence of the elements with their counterparts in nature (clover/water) and not to their relationship with humours. No insult intended, a mere statement of the facts, no doubt a misunderstanding than an intent to misrepresent...

 

[Bernice]

Kwaw, I'll get back to you. The reference may be a site linked from here.

Bee

 

[kwaw]

No mention of the latin suits or humors in Gosselin; rather they have been linked by cross reference with other sources such as the shepherd's calendar image cited by Mel & Ayumi showing element & humor correspondences together with emblems that link in with latin suits:

http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16316

We may get the same set of correspondences cross referencing Cornelius Agrippa's correspondences on the number four in his Occult Philosophy with Gosselin and Ringhieri*:

Lion - Mark - Fire Signs - Mars/Sun - Heat - Summer - East - Animals - Walking - Justice - Choleric - Violence

Eagle - John - Air Signs - Jupiter/Venus - Moisture - Spring - Plants - Flying - Temperance - Sanguine - Nimbleness

Man - Mathew - Water Signs - Saturn/Mercury - Cold - Winter - North - Metals - Swimming - Prudence - Flegmatic - Dullness

Calf - Luke - Earth Signs - Moon/Fixed Stars - Dryness - Autumn - South - Stones - Creeping - Fortitude - Melancholic - Slowness

Cross referencing Agrippa with Gosselin's elemental attributions to the French suits and Ringhieri's attributions of the Latin suits to the four cardinal virtues gives us:

Lion : Fire - Spades / Justice - Swords : Choleric
Eagle : Air - Hearts / Temperance - Cups : Sanguine
Man : Water - Clubs / Prudence - Coins : Flegmatic
Calf : Earth - Diamonds / Fortitude - Batons : Melancholic