The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

[ravenest]

Hmmm verrry interesting. So these initiation ceremonies where you might die from the process,

I mean tribal and other types of initiaton ceremonies. Sorry for the confusion.

What I should also point out is that I incorporate a wide field in 'initiatory studies', I started studying Cultural Anthropology ( and Divinity and Comparative Religion ) and Uni and have not stopped yet. So when I speak about initiation , I draw from the overall human experience and dynamic, of varied peoples and cultures, over time, throughout history, to the present and through various locations.

I also have 'field experience' in a few different types if such societies .... some still maintain their secrets. Some Aboriginal people here still preserve such traditions.

Can you imagine .... a tradition that may be up to 40,000 years old, and still being practiced ! And a tradition, whose rights of passage, initiations .... 'law' ( 'order' ) enabled them to live naturally and in harmony with no environmental degradation in all that time .

I assume as it's a ceremony in a building,

Depends on the group or the type of initiation. In Masonry the building or hall is supposed to be King Solomon's Temple. In Wicca it is best done out in nature IMO . One , the 'temple' set up emulates a desert .... imagine going out in the desert (or beach sand hills) and acting the whole thing out !

that there is no actual real risk...or is there?

Exactly !

Because you can't really bite the melon unless you are actually doing something which is actually dangerous which regularly kills people... which is out of the control of the participants?

yes, I would answer these questions for our group and the way we did things, but without giving too much away. Thats why I recommend a getting to know socially period first. I would not go blindly into a group with trusting attitude ... at all !

I cant speak for other groups.

Shall I start up on some very dodgy 'orders' that I saw inside ? .... one one level a joke ! ... on the other level, rather insidious .

I've always assumed (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) but the raison d'etre of orders is for spiritual enlightenment, part of which is only attainable if one is properly, really, actually in a life or death situation?

A central theme in all I studied and got involved with , a central motif is the 'earthly mundane' death of the candidate and a rebirth into a new set, experience and expression of personality. 'Born again' if one likes.

Nowadays , real death isnt a part of it, it is symbolic, a good Order and initiator ensures the candidates physical safety * and directs them how keep themself safe on other levels, but with this, the initiate has to take responsibility, and not neglect the recommended practices .

* The OTO, has a degree whose duties includes 'inspectors' . They have to check out groups, people, equipment, 'props' etc to make sure it is in 'order' and does not present a danger ... also with any official practices they undertake . In today's world of litigation, one has to be careful !

ETA what is going on with quotes not working at the moment?!

Think yourself lucky ... mine worked above ... when it should not have

 

[ravenest]

I think -if I understand ravenest's post -he was in character, talking as if to an audience, so I don't think he meant to direct that at you personally smw, even though I can see how it would feel like that to you.

Phew ! yes ! thats it !

sorry folks !

 

[smw]

Sorry, I was commenting on the original idea of 'traumatic' , I should have quoted the person that first said it , but then, it was more me reacting to the word than any person here, so sorry about that.

The comments dont refer to you, they refer to the people I was bitching about. And I just let it flow ..... owww ...

And I am assuming the supporting comments realised that as well, and where not supporting me going off at you for no reason. I certainly dont want people to stop voicing their frustrations or experiences as a seeker, I am hoping to address some if I can.

My apologies. (actually I will go back and edit my post ) .

Thank you Ravenest that is really appreciated

Though Princess Vader does have a certain ring to it

 

[smw]

~Deleted~ double post

 

[Tanga]

Thank you earthair I thought I might have to look over my posts tomorrow with fresh eyes, maybe I came across as really annoying or attempting to give opinions on things I don't know about

No. LOl. You did not.
Just excuse ravenest and myself - Ahem ... from reading your expression along the lines of
the relation of trauma to initiation (I believe you have edited it now. Thankyou so much for your concern and care here.) - I was immediately transported into the whole poetic drama of the meaning of initiation - just as ravenest then expressed. (Que: violins, thrill, MYSTERY, "surmounting your inner odds", etc. etc. etc.)
So Sorry.

Hmmm verrry interesting. So these initiation ceremonies where you might die from the process...

OK. So.
If you look at traditional folk culture which has initiation ceremonies.
Some of these were/are actually dangerous. Taking a plant based drug concoction for instance, to "journey to the otherlands and receive wisdom"... Going out to kill a cheetah (with only your spear! - not a riffle with a guide covering your back!) to prove you are a man...
Catching your own shark to skin it and make your own sacred drum... (and then you have to drum on that shark skin until it becomes smooth. Sharkskin is like sand paper.) etc.
*practices are from the Amazon, East Africa and Hawaii respectively.

Modern initiation is inspired by this, and there being a level of "unknowing" and "challenge", that facilitates a mindset for the proverbial "death and re-birth" as ravenest explains.
Real danger of course - is exempt now. (if it isn't - it's a dodgy group. And this ofcourse can manifest in any subject, not just this one.)

Yes, flummox them with circular yielding movements ... thurn that Bwahahahaha into Bhwa ha BAGUA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang

Ah yessssssssss... most fascinating and excellent suggestions. ( Thanks. Including Barleywine's "kicking" song! hahah.)
I think I lean towards the Kan Trigram Snake System... smooth flowing movements with the force - entrapping, striking the vital...
Oops.
Yes - back to AT.

 

[earthair]

Modern initiation is inspired by this, and there being a level of "unknowing" and "challenge", that facilitates a mindset for the proverbial "death and re-birth" as ravenest explains.
Real danger of course - is exempt now. (if it isn't - it's a dodgy group. And this ofcourse can manifest in any subject, not just this one.)

But real danger is where the mango is! Any extreme sportsman/woman will tell you that. The thrill of surviving after actually fighting for your life in extremely dangerous situations, especially under water, is like being reborn over and over.
Did AC / OTO try extreme sports?

 

[Tanga]

But real danger is where the mango is! Any extreme sportsman/woman will tell you that. The thrill of surviving after actually fighting for your life in extremely dangerous situations, especially under water, is like being reborn over and over.
Did AC / OTO try extreme sports?

Exactly.
And ahh - isn't the extreme sportsperson... possibly just a little addicted to the thrill?...
(sorry extreme sports people).
Lol.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

But real danger is where the mango is! Any extreme sportsman/woman will tell you that. The thrill of surviving after actually fighting for your life in extremely dangerous situations, especially under water, is like being reborn over and over.
Did AC / OTO try extreme sports?

Yes, AC was into mountain climbing. Including an adventure in the Himalayas that most of the members of his group didn't survive. (He also did plenty of other risky things, to be sure.)

 

[Tanga]

Yes, AC was into mountain climbing. Including an adventure in the Himalayas that most of the members of his group didn't survive. (He also did plenty of other risky things, to be sure.)

No kidding.

(And he wasn't the only one having done some risky things).

 

[Aeon418]

Real danger of course - is exempt now. (if it isn't - it's a dodgy group. And this ofcourse can manifest in any subject, not just this one.)

Real danger? Yes. But I am aware of one modern initiation rite where, at one point, the candidate is meant to experience real physical fear. And the method used to induce that reaction would probably raise a few eyebrows too.