The Visconti - and the Marseilles

Huck

le pendu said:
Hi Huck,

I did look at the site earlier, and you raise an interesting question with the snake = the devil. But we do know there are other cards that are strange from this period as well.. like the Ursino card.

We've the Ursino stag, the Mantegna Tarocchi, the Michelino deck, the Boiardo deck, the Cary-Yale, the 5x14 deck, the Minchiate, the Guildhall-Goldschmidt cards, the Sola Busca ... and I would bet, if I would know each curious deck of 15th century, this list would be much longer.
When I take a walk through our Museum with 3600 decks, I do perceive, what creativity means. Also I perceive, what standardization means. Both perspectives contrast each other, but both exist.
Standardization developed naturally by the mechanism of mass production. In the beginning of playing card development, massproduction naturally was not existent, but I suppose, that it developed early, already before the time, that we observe. However, there is the natural tendency, that at beginning the number of produced series of a specific deck type was small and later
got increased - just according to improvements of the production methodes
and trade ways, market strategies, guildbehaviour etc.
From this observation the idea seems natural, that the situation of the beginning of playing card development knew a lot of creativity, that means, the individuell structure and iconography of a deck could differ largely from others. When we read the text of Johannes of Rheinfelden, we see, although he's possibly only 10 years from the begining way, he knows a lot of decks and variants, he even already knows a deck, in which the number cards are personified, 60 persons and figures inside one deck, that are 22 more than in Tarot game (22+16) with 78 cards. In the year 1377.
Let's assume, they had a lot of varieties, but not the idea to add special cards, as we do have it in Tarot.

We do have a "first sign of Tarot", or better, "first sign of added special cards" in the year 1423, when the term Imperatori deck is mentioned in a document in Ferrara. The deck is imported from Florence, that means from a republic, not from a court. It doesn't necessarily mean "from the mass market" - the taste in Florence was already exquisite, perhaps of a high level. But: The idea came from "below", not from the courts.
We see at the same time something, which is only observable at this time, the early 20ies, and it happens only twice: 40 ducatos for a card play paid in Ferrara and 1500 ducatos paid in Milan by Filippo Maria Visconti.
Later prices are not cheap, but this two sums are exorbitant.

Such prices are only paid, when something is "really new", and the observation, that both prices are paid in nearly the same time gives reason to the correctness of this assumption. Something new has happened, a quality jump. A new interest ...
Politically we've after 1425 a disturbance of "happy card playing". San Bernardino is running around and preaches - that is a compley conservative countermeasurement against new developments in social culture, and part of the attacked "modern world" is card playing. We've then great wars, another bad condition, and then with Pope Eugen somebody, who engaged to help San Bernardino. Eugen took his home in Florence .... ergo: Florence chances to produce new playing card developments are bad.
More cultural freedom in Ferrara, which luckily more or less stayed outside of the wars of Venizia, Florence and Milan. Result: in 15th century a lot of cultural new-developments started in Ferrara, it became the "Hollywood" of its time. A relatively small city, but with a splendid court.

The idea of the Imperatori had wandered to Ferrara already in 1423. But ... political and familiary conditions (Parisina captivated by the accusation of her husband) stopped playing card development. Playing card interests reappear 1434, "when the many kids are old enough", and when "marriage of the daughters" give opportunity for social festivities.
Inside this "group of young people" the intellectual basis is given to produce a "new playing card level". And there is the right situation, when Bianca Maria Visconti is at a visit, possibly in near futiure marrying the heir of Ferrara
Leonello d'Este. It's clear, that for the amusement of the young ladies (there are 3 at this court from which we know) playing cards are necessary. And here the Trionfi developments seems to take a start. 1.1.1441. And also is clear, that this community has no reason to imitate something. What they do, is naturally "creative", it's Ferrara, the most creative point in space and time for this moment.
The object is a luxury deck "in project" for the marriage of Leonello and Bianca. A "Trionfi deck", cause the marriage would be accompanied by triumphal festivities.
The projected marriage never took place. But the card deck had "14 figure", whatever was pictured on them, this we don't know.

Another projected marriage took place, in October 1441. This was - probably - accompanied by the Cary-Yale. It had 24 court cards and - likely - 16 trumps. It was - probably - different from the deck of 1.1.1441. Why should it have been the same? It was another marriage and these decks had the idea to show the greatness of just this event and not another.
2 monthes later a next "Trionfi" occasion. Immediately after the death of his father Leonello orders 4 Trionfi decks and they're ready and paid in February 1442. And again - it's likely - that also this decks were different ... The interests in this type of deck seem to go down in the 40ies ... The real action was the "triumphal procession and the great festivities", the decks had only the function to accompany them. It seems, that the Trionfo of Alfonso in Naples hadn't an event-deck, this was, as it it seems, only a custom in North Italian courts, but - probably not of all, as any playing cards notes for instance from Mantua (had a lot German connections) are missing.

Well ... I shouldn't tell too much, this becomes too long, but you see, that a reason for "repeating decks" was not given at the begin of the Trionfi development, everybody, who had reason and money and interests enough to make a Trionfi with accompanying card deck, had an interest to produce something individual, not a series imitation, this would have been nonsense and against any logic. So .. there is the creativity.
One of these experiments became later - by the curious ways of life - very successful. It became a series, somehow modified and the production methodes were of course according to new developments in printing technique. In the given time, nobody knew of this development, things have their own dynamic.
That's the spirit, out of which the Tarot was born: Creativity at various occasions. A tree gives many seeds, some (and most) never become a tree, others stay small and perhaps one or two become very big. These new trees don't look completely like the mother-tree, but have similarities.
The Tarot was one of the big trees.
The 5x14-deck of Bembo already is nearly the Marseille, as far the choice of the motifs is concerned. The numbers are probably correct.

For the research for the first 22-decks, which leads to the Marseille, this means: Look at Milan.

There are various reasons to look at the time from 1460 - 1475 for the development to the 22 deck.
This means for research: Look at Milan in 1460 - 1475. And that means: Lokk at Galeazzo Maria Sforza.
Galeazzo Maria had many festivities, but the marriage to Bona should be a greater one. There is the "Trionfo" and there one should search the "Trionfi cards" with 22 elements.

Galeazzo had a curious accident in his life:
When he was 22 years, he followed his father on the throne of Milano.
When his father, Francesco Sforza, was 22 years old, he followed his father in the role of the Super-condottieri
When his mother was 22 years old, her father, Filippo Maria Visconti died.

Galeazzo Maria had a personal reason to be personally fixed on the number 22.

It might be, that already had chosen a playing card experiment with the number 22 involved: Boiardo perhaps, for instance. But perhaps there had been also decks with other numbers. Galeazzo's likely choice: He took the 22 as the number of the trumps.

Rather unlikely: That he put at position 15 a card like the devil.
Rather unlikely: That he didn't consider Prudentia.

So that's an interesting jump.. to suggest that the snake equals the devil.. there is certainly a lot of historical references to the devil as a snake. But I do think it goes from a jump to a leap to suggest that the snake originally represented Prudence.

This was an individual deck, made for a Trionfo, with the individual wish to display Visconti heraldic - and the Visconti heraldic had its snake.
It was not imaginable to Galeazzo Maria, that 540 years after his action in an Tarotforum in Australia this small detail of the much greater Triuonfo, that he made, would get such an importance. Also he didn't realize, how this decision would influence 500 and more years of playing card production.

Of course he had a sort of idle, philosophic reflection of his own family device - as it probably any of this heraldic owners had in all these centuries. And in the spirit of his time, he probably thought of Prudentia and analysed, "the Visconti family was always clever and mighty (could capture their foes)".
And he uses it and for his mind it was completely boring, what you are me would think of it.

It's true that Prudence was sometimes shown holding a snake. She was also portrayed sometimes with two faces, often with a mirror, and often with a stag or deer. But for the snake to become the representation of Prudence, rather than a prop, is too big a gulf for me personally to navigate.

The connection of snake to wisdom and knowledge is already given in rthe bible and also in Greek mythology. See legend Garden Eden, Teiresias and caduceus of Mercury. Galeazzo didn't invent anything with this.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding negative during this thread. I don't mean to.

:) Don't worry.

Many people here have a pet theory of how tarot evolved.

This is not a pet theory. Galeazzo Maria doesn't really look like the nice guy, one would love to have invented Tarot. Many pet theories have been left to reach this one, many other ideas and possibilities are in the trash. This is serious and demanded the study of a lot of details, not mentioned here.

JMD believes a 78 card tarot, in a similar form to the TdM, existed before the Visconti decks, which I would assume you disagree with. He votes against the Visconti decks as true Tarot because in his view the decks do not reflect what he believes to be a true tarot, (although he can not prove that this tarot existed at all), and because the decks we have are incomplete.

As far I know, JMD didn't reflect the offered scheme till now.

You and Lothar (and to some degree Ross) are convinced that tarot DID evolve out of the courts in 15th Century Italy, but you discount the Visconti decks because you have a theory of "how" they evolved, and to admit that the Sforza is just as likely to have been complete as incomplete defeats your hypothisis. I've read over a thousand posts on your newsgroup, and *greatly* admire the work everyone involved contributes, I remain open-minded, but unconvinced.

I don't know, what you mean with "discount the Visconti decks". We think it worthful, when researchers are open-minded and unconvinced.

I'm waiting for someone to show me these images, as a group, existing ANYWHERE before 15th Century Italy.

One cannot show decks or images, which are not available. Research is done to see the hidden background, invisible to the normal eye. This helps to research in the right direction and not to waste energies in fields, where naturally nothing can be found.
The 5x14-theory was formulated by Lothar 1989 as "true with a probability of at least 99 %" on the base of just looking at Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo deck. The 70 cards note from Ferrara came much later, the document of Ferrara 1441 came later, the perspective of Marcello 1449, which destroyed the illusion, that Trionfi = 22 trumps destroyed, came later.
But these points were only recognized, cause the right places were focused in research.

That's the same with Galeazzo Maria: Focusing him will probably lead to further details, which makes the net closer. I say "probably", cause when we verify, that the bacic assumption is wrong, we change our course, we do not work with "pet theories", we also try to be open-minded.

I'm waiting for a plausable structure or story. I'm waiting for a more plausable reason for the images that do exist to have been chosen. I've read Lothar's theory and the logic for the 14 cards and their relationship to each other, but, again, something seems wrong and missing. Just as when I read Lothar's reasoning against an Ur Tarot in your link.. his card relationships and reasoning seems as forced and overlaid as a Fools Journey, or a snake representing Prudence.

1. In the figure you've the numbers running from 0-21 - you can't speak against this.

2. That 0/1 and 20/21 are logical pairs, is not only our observation, it's also given by the rules, which give high points to 0-1-21 - you can't speak against this.

3.That 2-3-4-5 and 16-17-18-19 are logical groups, was also said already elsewhere. Yatima made a lot about his 6 or 7 lights recently. But, simply looking shows, 4 lights are clearly deciperable: 19-18-17-16. - You can't argue against this.
Btw: The explanation to the card Jupiter, highest card in the Michelino deck,
includes a note to 4 lights, one in each of the four corners, the top lights seem to be sun and moon, but are metaphorically described, so unclear, but the bottom lights are a "star like Mars" and a "lightning". 4 lights, not 6 or 7 as Yatima suggested.

4. The middle-10 from 6-15 is a life-tree, that's the only statement you can argue about.
Well, we can discuss this part in detail, that's interesting.

I'm agnostic. I'm not convinced of anything. There are so many layers to tarot it's hard to know what to believe. But I still believe there was a logic behind the cards originally. A story or purpose that would have explained why this very strange collection of images would have been combined. I'm very willing to believe it happened before the Visconti decks. I'm very willing to believe it happened in France, or Germany, or Arabia. But no one has yet put the pieces together in a significant enough way to persuade me to believe anything except that Tarot evolved as a game to entertain the royal families of Italy. I DO believe the Sforza is a later development. I Do believe there was a lot of experimentation. But at some point these images became "tarot", and I want to know why.

To all who I've mentioned above, if I've misrepresented your views or oversimplified your beliefs, I apologize right now. This is just a very brief summary of how I've come to understand them in the past year. Everyone I have mentioned has *deeply* expanded my understanding and appreciation of Tarot, I am in your debt.

best,
robert

Well, we've also to thank you for your critical reflection.
 

jmd

To have a rich and diverse period in which various decks were produced (as of course they have likewise been over the last twenty years - witness the Angel, Rune, Cartouche, &c cards) speaks wonderful of the creative diversity of the times, and the richness that each deck may indeed incorporate, not whether any is a reflection of Tarot.

As many of us did not have the privilege of having read Lothar's suggestion a 5 X 14 deck having 99% probability until more recently, this did not of course prevent others from having suggested the same much earlier as a possibility (as I did in a course in the early 1990s), based simply on looking carefully at the cards themselves, and noting that six of the extant twenty were not of the set. The investigative method is a more general one: 'what if, in this case, there were no 'lost' Atouts? is this an instance of a deck that still displays consistency, or do we need to assume a loss?'

Of course loss of a few cards is still feasible.

When I earlier read, either in the historical section, or Trionfi.com, or LTarot (I cannot now recall) of the fascinating and significant discovery that Galeazzo Maria also had personal familial reasons to be enamoured or fascinated with the number twenty-two (his Milanese accession to power at that age, his maternal grandfather's death at that age of his mother's, etc), this would have been, rather than primary motives, additional reasons.

Unless quite peculiar about the ages and significant events, the twenty-two years of age would also have added significance once at least the court intelligentsia also pointed out that there were precisely twenty-two letters in the alphabet of 'God's Language' (Hebrew), and that those more personal, yet divinely appointed events (sitting on the throne, death, etc) also occured at that age of a number of his family.

Without the more universally significant relation of there being twenty-two Hebrew letters, the personal twenty-two are less likely to have played the significance that Huck suggests. And we of course have numerous reasons to believe that the importance and considered significance of Hebrew was on the increase.

Before Mark Filipas's Alphabetic Masquerade, of course I, along with numerous others, were aware of the various claims made for alphabetic correlations between Atouts and Hebrew. After all, it is made clear from the 1850s onwards, and in three forms - Levi's form which place the Fool with Shin as penultimate; Falconnier's which places the Fool as last; and Wescott's which places it first.

Until Mark Filipas's work, however, and though I had a personal preference based more on what seemed correspondence of best fit and 'best' reasoned argument, I must admit I favoured Levi's version - but also had looked at each of the three with equal effort. It also seemed to me that there was greater possibility that the Atouts and Hebrew had more a quantitative, rather than qualitative or intrinsic, correlation (even though many words and patterns could be found for all three - which of course one may when there is a quatitative basis).

The significance of Filipas's essay has yet, to my mind, be fully appreciated.

Some similar model may indeed be found of unifying significance for the Visconti decks - whether in the 'real action' of the 'triumphal procession and the great festivities' or in encoded heretical thought is not important for the point. Either way, the internal significance of the Visconti is not in the least denied.

Likewise the more obvious overall patterning and the significance of the Mantegna.

With regards to the Marseille, if there is indeed a Hebrew-letter aspect embedded therein, then the questions related to when, how and why also become of relative importance.

We know that crypto-Jews played cards on the Sabbat as a 'family tradition' - and 'crypto' because indeed they were 'hidden' within their own communities: there for all to see, but their inner work hidden in the light of day. We also know that they pretended to be Huguenots in the south of France (until these too were persecuted).

We also know that cards were widespread. But why would this precise deck (and I mean what we now refer to as the Marseille, but then simply referred to as 'Taraux' or 'Tarot') maintain its allegorical and symbolic significance when other decks, such indeed as the many wonderful and more light-hearted animal and every-day life scenes of other decks show, have far more general appeal?

This is of course a question that asks about the internal significance of the Marseille, but also suggests that this pattern is, perhaps, not so much 'standardised' against other decks, but rather only 'standardised' within its own smaller variations - ie, the Sola Busca, the Mantegna and others are wonderful, but different decks.
 

Huck

jmd said:
To have a rich and diverse period in which various decks were produced (as of course they have likewise been over the last twenty years - witness the Angel, Rune, Cartouche, &c cards) speaks wonderful of the creative diversity of the times, and the richness that each deck may indeed incorporate, not whether any is a reflection of Tarot.

As many of us did not have the privilege of having read Lothar's suggestion a 5 X 14 deck having 99% probability until more recently, this did not of course prevent others from having suggested the same much earlier as a possibility (as I did in a course in the early 1990s), based simply on looking carefully at the cards themselves, and noting that six of the extant twenty were not of the set. The investigative method is a more general one: 'what if, in this case, there were no 'lost' Atouts? is this an instance of a deck that still displays consistency, or do we need to assume a loss?'.

Lothar found to his theory in May 1989 within 3 ecstatical weeks only on the base of Kaplan I and tried to communicate his mathematical analyses to various persons in the early 90ies (Hoffmann, Kaplan) and again in early internet times to Dummett (1997 ?), also in a small internet group (existing only to this single purpose) with various selected participants (April 1997 ?, Bob O Neill was present, Geoge Leake, Jess Karlin, Mary Greer, Bill Heidrick and some others, around 20 persons), realizing, that it seemed, that people are not interested to follow such specific ideas and especially not when they are presented "mathematical" (beside Bob O'Neill, who showed a longer interest in exchange, more or less all others fell in deadly silence) - as this was la creme de la creme of Tarot history of this time, it seemed rather hopeless to reach anybody with such stuff. At this time it was not so easy as today to realize internet pages, and publishers had shown massively desinterest to publish his book to the theme already in the early time (they wished Lothar to write "How-to-do-do"-books, but Lothar felt too educated for this).
Ross had the idea, when he became acquainted to Lothar, later we heard, that Ron Decker had the same idea, also John Berry, also - forgot the name - the lady T? who is active at storia di milano, just these days a Murray from Newzealand appeared working with the same idea long years already.

But I guess, that nobody got to Lothar's detailed analyses. And nobody declared, that this is a 99% probability proof; although, that's a harmless judgment, 99,9 % or less is the real result, if one thinks sharp, but Lothar thinks (just a matter of personal experience) that already a publical 99% estimation has the result, that people, who "believe Tarot", turn their head and never listen again, so both numbers are completely useless to make the topic appear relevant. Cause people "know" (or in this case "knew") , that others, which they believed to be authorities seemed to have said something different.
As "normal" communication was not possible cause of this "law", so there was simply only the possibility to make a deep walk through Tarot and playing card history and gather that up, what others disregarded cause of simple not understanding that, what the 5x14-theory declares.
Ortalli, who was first with the 70 cards note in Ferrara, simply didn't realise, what he had there - when Dummett had noted or IPSC had presented the 5x14-theory early enough, he would have known.
The note from 1.1.1441 only became relevant, cause Ross knew, what to look for. A 14, not a 22.

Also was the idea, that Tarot developed 1420 - 1440 so massively manifested, that anybody believed, that others knew something, which they not knew, what made the theory unattackable. In esoterical circles the imagination existed, that somewhere the persons with the great knowledge éxisted, unreachable somewhere behind the curtain, and these people knew, why this must be so. And cause pof that, "this was so".
This dragon is killed, cause that, what is positively there, is reachable on our site, not hidden somewhere in dead and unreachable books, cause it is or should be almost caught up by our work - perhaps data is missing still, but we've a good chance to get it, when it appears on the surface.

Of course loss of a few cards is still feasible.
Lothar declares something of 99%, and Huck tells you something of a chance of 1:1000. And there you go:

111111111110110000010

This is a mix of 1's and 0's - 22 x 1 or 0: This has 4 000 000 and some possibilities.

1 means: card is there and 0 says: card is not there

111111111110110000010 describes the reality of the 14 Bembo cards in relation to the mathematical order used in the Marseille Tarot. The first 1 says: the Fool is present, the second 1 says the Magician is present etc.
The problem is to decide to which degree this mights be "accident" - and to which degree this simply must be "intentional". Of course, in a situation like this anything can be accidental - with a chance of 1: 4000000

If you would have

1111111111111100000000

you would say

"this can't be accident" - although you know of the chance 1:4000000

Now you have instead:

1111111111111100000000 = old, just to see the difference
1111111111101100000010 = new

What do you say now? Accident? Intention? This is only one step aside.
It's difficult, there are lot of things to consider. But try, if you like.

The actual facts, which are part of the consideration

1.

0+1+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10..+12+13+.....20 = 100
100 speaks for "intentional". The way how
1111111111111100000000 was transformed from "105" to
1111111111101100000010 = 100
looks "intentional"

2.
The additional cards:
sun-moon-star looks "intentional"
temperance-strength-world=prudentia looks "intentional"

In history you always live with insecurities, a document might be forged, wrong translated, a reporting historian drunken or having a writing error, you always live with chances of being wrongly informed. They are usually higher much higher than 1:1000 or 1:100.

This is in historical dimensions a very sure message. The 14 Bembo trumps are part a complete game with 70 cards. And the additional cards look as if they point to an intermediary state with 20 trumps. Perhaps a very short state.

:) But of course: Somebody might have taken the cards and mixed that to the composition , that we should fall in error. Then he went to Ferrara and forged the entry, and before he talked to Marcello :)

There is simply no evidence of a 22 before the Boiardo deck. And the opposition to the 5x14-theory will run into nothing once.

When I earlier read, either in the historical section, or Trionfi.com, or LTarot (I cannot now recall) of the fascinating and significant discovery that Galeazzo Maria also had personal familial reasons to be enamoured or fascinated with the number twenty-two (his Milanese accession to power at that age, his maternal grandfather's death at that age of his mother's, etc), this would have been, rather than primary motives, additional reasons.

This is also from Lothar, May 1989. The suggestion, that Galeazzo added 2 cards (including the snake) existed from the very begin of the research as a major hypotheses, however, specific details were added later.

Unless quite peculiar about the ages and significant events, the twenty-two years of age would also have added significance once at least the court intelligentsia also pointed out that there were precisely twenty-two letters in the alphabet of 'God's Language' (Hebrew), and that those more personal, yet divinely appointed events (sitting on the throne, death, etc) also occured at that age of a number of his family.

Galeazzo is described as very suspicious, much in contrary to his father, who seemed to be free of the astrological believes of his time. The suspicious character might have developed out of his personal "22"-experience. Jewish dictionaries report in a positive way about Galeazzo Maria, perhaps
his personal "22" worked to let him act socially to them, although he's generally described as bad and cruel often. However, one often doesn't know, how publical opinion was forged by history books. He was murdered ... as this happened in a peaceful phase of Italy, a comparition to the case of John F. Kennedy might be interesting. A young man, murdered, one of the mightiest persons in Italy and Europe. A year later, the also young Charles of Burgund, death on the battlefield. This was an important European decision, but Milan also had European dimensions, not only Burgund. Another year later, another very young man, Giuliano de Medici, murdered in Florence. This was a deadly series in 3 years, and it started with Galeazzo Maria. So naturally a mystification of his person should have taken place - with Pro and Contra. Just compare John F. Kennedy - such things can endure years.

A comet appeared, a bad sign. It burnt in the bedroom of Galeazzo Maria in Milan, this was interpreted as bad sign. 3 black crows circled around his head on his way to Milan. An astrolog, so tells legend - or what?, had announced, that Galeazzo wouldn't reach the 11th year of his reign. He got opportunity in prison to rethink his prophecy, with 10 days enough to eat. If true, a rather stupid astrolog, could predict the destiny of others, but not his own. If legend, who has an interest to spread such things?

He had 22 choristers in his beloved music group. His daughter had 22 stages in the menu of her marriage. His father stayed unbeaten in 22 battles - which is wrong counting. His father had 22 children - which is not correct.
It seems, that the Tarot cards (or the number 22) were somehow attributed to the Sforzas.
Without the more universally significant relation of there being twenty-two Hebrew letters, the personal twenty-two are less likely to have played the significance that Huck suggests..

:) We will see.
It might be, that Boiardo formed the 22-version cause of interest in Hebrew matters, and Galeazzo got the idea from him, but Galeazzo would have decided his own ways. And he was not a scholar with too deep interests in learning ... or for instance Hebrew alphabet.
 

Vincent

Helvetica said:
Reductio ad absurdum, Vincent.
How so?
Helvetica said:
Sneering is not going to win you an argument.
Its not an argument. Not even the essence of an argument.

How can there be an argument when you refuse to define terms, and substitute verbosity for clarity? When 'answers' are provided that seemingly have no relation to questions asked.

It might interest some people to know that there is a debate about Ur-Tarot on TarotL at the moment. One that tries to identify such a deck by the use of certain criteria, rather than adjusting criteria to identify a certain deck.

They have managed to come up with a few useable definitions for an Ur-Tarot.

Vincent
 

Sophie

Vincent said:
How so?

Its not an argument. Not even the essence of an argument.

Some think it is, as it probably is, if by argument is meant "debate". What else has been happening on this forum? In answer to a question about which was the Ur-Tarot, some have upheld the TdM as opposed to the Visconti (or other early Italian decks). Not the first cards - unlike, say, what Huck is discussing in his great post about two packs of cards for two separate weddings - but what constitutes an achieved form of Tarot, which also contains its essence. As you say, some usable definitions have been proposed. If we were all sitting round a table we would be no doubt be more efficient about nailing an agreed definition! But to brush off those who hold that opinion and argue for the notion of an Ur-Tarot, and brush them off with mocking terms like "ur-essence of tarot" I find rather poor sport.

This idea of essence of tarot in no way goes against the idea that Tarot continued to evolve after it reached its achieved form (just as novels continued to be written after Anna Karenina), and continues to do so. It shows what a vigorous tradition tarot is, even when modified by 19th and 20th century esoterists.
 

Sophie

le pendu said:
What I have the hardest time with is looking at the 22 trumps as a *whole*. I have yet to be convinced by any theory as to why the images exist as a group. To me, when I look at the cards I get the clearest impression that there is something MISSING, the story is incomplete. Whoever put these images together, if we assume there was a structure, must have chosen them for a reason. Yet, to me it is a mystery.

You touch here upon the question of the formation of a canon. Canons are rarely decided by one person, though one person might give it its final form, and never happen by chance without design. The most famous canons in Europe are of course the Bibles (the Hebrew Bible, aka Old Testament for the Christians) and the Christian New Testament. The forms of both those books changed over time until a canon was decided upon by those who won not only theological arguments but also power struggles within their communities (I refer you to the debates within the early Church that eventually led to the exclusion of Gnostic and Arian texts from the Christian canon, which later formed the New Testament). Likewise in more flexible canons, such as what constitutes the "great writers" of a period as taught in schools - there are often distinct cultural and political reasons, as well as purely aesthetic, to accept one and reject another.

One line of inquiry in Tarot history is to understand how the accepted Tarot canon of 22 trumps and 56 other cards (including court cards) came about . Who were the directing intelligence(s) behind such choices? Huck has proposed one such directing intelligence in the person of Galaezzo Maria, whose pet number was 22.

The next question - whether or not Huck's (or rather Lothar's) theory is proven - is why those 22? And what is the reason for this canon? If one accepts the proposition that canons aren't born out of caprice, then we can seek for such reasons. This, hopefully, would also enlighten us as to the meaning of the canon as a whole.

Then there is the whole question of why add trumps that have a precise iconography to playing cards in the first place. Jmd has proposed a theory - that it was done by maranes (hidden Jews) as a teaching tool (of course his theory depends on Tarot being born in Spain or in Languedoc rather than in Ferrara).

I'm too new to ancient tarot to propose anything, though my intellectual roots are in history - ancient, medieval and Renaissance (precisely the history of ideas and intellectual currents, including religious and artistic), hence my poking my nose in this debate. I have followed the exchanges here with great interest! I hope you find the answer to your mystery, Robert :)
 

Ross G Caldwell

Huck said:
Ross had the idea, when he became acquainted to Lothar, later we heard, that Ron Decker had the same idea, also John Berry, also - forgot the name - the lady T? who is active at storia di milano, just these days a Murray from Newzealand appeared working with the same idea long years already.

"lady T" = Maria Grazia Tolfo. She told me in a personal communication that she thought there were only 14 cards originally, and she had been writing a story about what they meant (she is also no longer active at Storia di Milano :-(.


Ortalli, who was first with the 70 cards note in Ferrara, simply didn't realise, what he had there - when Dummett had noted or IPSC had presented the 5x14-theory early enough, he would have known.

Bertoni, not Ortalli or Franceschini, discovered the 70 card entry first. He published it in 1875 (noted in Ortalli's paper). However, he said nothing about it.

Dummett also repeated Bertoni in 1980 and 1993, but passed over it without comment.

Thierry Depaulis has said he doesn't know what it means.

The note from 1.1.1441 only became relevant, cause Ross knew, what to look for. A 14, not a 22.

This is true, but we still don't know what was on those "cards" (card-stock might be a better image). Logic alone cannot compel me to belief in what the images would have been, and I haven't found any historians of Bianca Maria, Ferrara etc. who have cared to speculate. It is a fragment of information whose significance is elusive.
 

Parzival

Visconti and Marseilles

Helvetica said:
This idea of essence of tarot in no way goes against the idea that Tarot continued to evolve after it reached its achieved form (just as novels continued to be written after Anna Karenina), and continues to do so. It shows what a vigorous tradition tarot is, even when modified by 19th and 20th century esoterists.

Excellent point! The dynamic mix of creativity and standardization which Huck identifies produces a more variable and varied origin to the Tarot than some esotericists would admit. The Tarot does not explode whole into existence, like Athena out of Zeus' head. It's more like the way Japanese poets played with the Haiku form in many ways as it came to be more or less standardized by Basho. Huck referred to the Tarot as "one of the big trees" in the formative period of many trees or groves. ( His information about the Imperatori deck from Florence to Ferrara 1423 is significant.) All of which brings me to emphasize that however the Tarot got on the go, it "continues to do so." It's not merely a museum piece,--- it's a living continuum. And "modified" may also mean transformed into a new creation.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Galeazzo Maria Sforza

If you want to know about Galeazzo Maria Sforza, the only book to read is Gregory Lubkin, "A Renaissance Court: Milan under Galeazzo Maria Sforza" University of California Press, 1994.

Contains: study of what a "court" is; extensive background on Milan, Visconti and Sforza history; study of relationship between Galeazzo Maria and his mother Bianca Maria in the last few years of her life (1465-1468); full and engaging narrative and analytic account of Galeazzo Maria's life and rule in Milan, 1466-1476. Full documentation and bibliography, primary and secondary sources, extensive index, plates, etc.

Simply the best to date, in any language.

The book can be browsed at amazon.com (last time I looked). But it might be better to borrow it from a library before committing to buy it, since it runs (I believe) around $70.
 

Huck

Frank Hall said:
Excellent point! The dynamic mix of creativity and standardization which Huck identifies produces a more variable and varied origin to the Tarot than some esotericists would admit. The Tarot does not explode whole into existence, like Athena out of Zeus' head. It's more like the way Japanese poets played with the Haiku form in many ways as it came to be more or less standardized by Basho. Huck referred to the Tarot as "one of the big trees" in the formative period of many trees or groves. ( His information about the Imperatori deck from Florence to Ferrara 1423 is significant.) All of which brings me to emphasize that however the Tarot got on the go, it "continues to do so." It's not merely a museum piece,--- it's a living continuum. And "modified" may also mean transformed into a new creation.

Yes, good words. It's a river of ideas through the centuries and perhaps the most creative phase was at its begin ... although late 20th century is also very great and the most revolutionary phase is NOW ... thanks to internet times.
However, antiquity has it worth, and ever people will return to the question, how did it start. And, thanks to internet, there was never a better time to research it.