Thoth Study Group - Lust - XI

[Grigori]

My understanding was the Golden Dawn switched Strength and Justice for astrological reasons, and this switch was maintained by Waite in the RWS deck and presented as his own idea (the GD deck still being a secret one, and from recent readings it seems Waite had a hand in the designing of the GD deck and its concordances anyway, despite the story that Mathers produced it "magically" already complete in the first instance).

Crowley returned them to their previous order (as in the TdM) which put the signs Leo and Libra out of order again. This justified his exchanging Tzaddi and Heh, between the Star and the Emperor (by having a pair out of synch in both the astrological and the cabala concordances)

So while the Thoth deck does use the order of the TdM, it is also a considered deviation from the GD tradition, and not just a return the TdM tradition (as is evident from the other changes he made e.g. the Courts which are decidedly GD in nature, much more so than the RWS which is closer to the TdM)

 

[Dean]

Lust Sensuality and passion and hidden desires.

 

[Tzabaoth]

I have recently found myself studying the meaning of the Lust card ever since a friend of mine had a run in with a Jehovah's Witness. Though I am mildly knowledgeable with the bible, there are many figures within that I am not aware of.

And after reading over the pamphlet the JW left for my friend I saw a very familiar image; A sexual woman riding atop a 7 headed beast with 10 horns. And it was then that I realized that the Lust card is a pictoral of the whore of babylon riding atop the great beast. I've been googling all the information I could find, and I now know what the Jehovah's Witness meaning of the harlot is and that of the bible.

To the JW, the harlot / whore of babylon represents false religion and the great beast represents the world governments who embrace and "fornicate" with the harlot. Biblically the harlot seems to represent the corrupt church of the anti-christ. And the beast stil continues to represent a corrupt govermnment or city. And historically, pretty much any strong governmental-religious entity has been regarded as the whore of babylon.

But this is the whore and beast of the age of Osiris. The question is, what has the whore and the beast become in the age of Horus?

The lust card in DuQuette's book is shown to possibly indicate the need to resort to magic, or simply an indication that one will or is currently resorting to magic.

Arguably, in a Crowley slant, the "anti-christian" whore then can represent the "new age" revolution that many give credit to him for starting. The whore of babylon, while also being the title he gave to his consorts, could very well be the Age of Horus itself where spirituality is emphasized as a personal path of the person, rather than as a mass entity.

Either way, though I don't quite understand it just yet, I think the key to fully understanding the meanings behind lust is to study it's association as the whore of babylon who rides the great beast. One must study it's meaning within the Aeon of Osiris and try to figure out what it has subsequently becoming after the beginning of the Aeon of Horus

 

[ravenest]

But this is the whore and beast of the age of Osiris. The question is, what has the whore and the beast become in the age of Horus?

One can get quiet confused giving Thelemic images and icons that have a root in christianity a christian meaning when one doesnt have the thelemic understanding ... they wont harmonize of course ... chalk and cheese!

In the Age of Horus these two represent the model or archetype for the New Aeon male and female. The qualities? I', sure I've posted on this before and it may well be in the links above.

[or in my early post ' 7 (?) heads of the Beast ' perhaps]

 

[Stanton]

One of the things that immediately hit me with this was it's connection to the Harlot of Babylon, as mentioned in The Book of Revelations [I may not be a Cristian, but mythology is still mythology, and archetypical.]

Now, the beast, has seven heads, no horns, and no crowns. For the horns, I extrapolated, and said because the beast was not overly dangerous[As, though it is not meant only for killing] [Don't ask, but I associate horns as a weapon], and no crowns, thus removing it from rulership, but still capable of getting it [as a connection to Leo suggests for me].

The Harlot of Babylon is in control, because the beast lets her, but she is not in control of herself, giving into her base desires.

Leo connects these two, as in the book, they represent the corrupt rulership of the planet. However, as lustful and proud as she is, she is merely the beast she rides pawn. Maybe, in my interpretation, she tells people, "I think i am in control of my situation, but I am really not."

The way the color moves behind them, and around them, suggests a lack of control, so I associate this with a lack of control, as well as rising entropy [in both, the mathematical sense, and the symbollic sense.]

I guess, I could say, I see this entire card as in someway saying there is a lack of control, especially of power [Leo].

Archetypical is the key word. The Harlot and beast are an archetype of control from behind the scenes.

That's my two cents at least.

 

[Aeon418]

I guess, I could say, I see this entire card as in someway saying there is a lack of control, especially of power [Leo].

Archetypical is the key word. The Harlot and beast are an archetype of control from behind the scenes.

Could you expand on this a little? It's quite confusing because you sum up the entire card as a lack of control. But how does this square with "control behind the scenes"?

I like to see Babalon and the Beast as Yin and Yang united in Love under Will. Or maybe even the Higher self riding upon the perfected Chariot of the Lower self.

Plus Babalon is not all that bad once you get to know her. She does crop up 9 cards earlier as a rather mysterious woman called The Priestess of the Silver Star. Now that's a real contradiction.... or is it?

 

[Stanton]

Could you expand on this a little? It's quite confusing because you sum up the entire card as a lack of control. But how does this square with "control behind the scenes"?

I like to see Babalon and the Beast as Yin and Yang united in Love under Will. Or maybe even the Higher self riding upon the perfected Chariot of the Lower self.

Plus Babalon is not all that bad once you get to know her. She does crop up 9 cards earlier as a rather mysterious woman called The Priestess of the Silver Star. Now that's a real contradiction.... or is it?

In The Book of Thoth, it mentiones that the card has a divine feeling of drunkeness. To my eyes, it feels like SHE is drunk, while the beast is not.

From what I've gleaned on the personality of Babalon, she's the female counter part of the Beast [Recall, Crowley referred to himself as the beast]. She leads the beast on, tells him where to go, and what not [Hew actually made a list as to how certain women in his life fulfilled this role.]. He chose Revealtions symbollism for this tough, and I think that in the end, he decided to be reined by Babalon.

 

[ravenest]

I like to see Babalon and the Beast as Yin and Yang united in Love under Will. Or maybe even the Higher self riding upon the perfected Chariot of the Lower self.

YES!

Plus Babalon is not all that bad once you get to know her. She does crop up 9 cards earlier as a rather mysterious woman called The Priestess of the Silver Star. Now that's a real contradiction.... or is it?

and her daughter on the last trump.

 

[Ealasaid Enfys]

The chariot and lust both hold 'things', a holy grail in the chariot, and a uterus in lust. Both cards speak of the holy grail, the priests in the background of lust have given their life to it.

In a way the uterus in lust is the Holy Grail as well: Mary Magdalene's uterus and Christ's offspring that came from it.

 

[Always Wondering]

In a way the uterus in lust is the Holy Grail as well:

I can see this. As an extention of the glowing cup, or visa versa, in a primal, sexual sort of way.

Mary Magdalene's uterus and Christ's offspring that came from it.

I can't see this at all. Not with Thoth Lust, and we are on the Thoth forum after all, speaking of the Thoth deck.

From the Book of Thoth

The main subject of the card refers to the most ancient collection of legends or fables. It is necessary here to go a little into the magical doctrine of the succesion of the Aeons, which is connected with the procession of the Zodiac. Thus, the last Aeon, that of Osiris, it reffered to Aries and Libra, as the previous Aeon, that of Isis, was especially connected with the signs of Pisces and Virgo, while the present, that of Horus, is linked with Aquarius and Leo.

AW