VIII Strength : XI or Not?

Fulgour

I have been saving a few new links for some good
images if anyone is interested in continuing this thread.

Maybe we can get off with all our wait on the wright foot.

(...the other right foot)
 

Rusty Neon

If it's RWS, it's 8. If it's Thoth or Marseilles, it's 11. If it's an antique tarot deck with some other number for Strength, it's that number.
 

Fulgour

"VIII" for STRENGTH is a blind used by Waite and many
artists/writers/printers ever since. It's like attributing the
letter 'Sin to The Fool, when everyone knows it's Taw.
 

Rusty Neon

Fulgour said:
"VIII" for STRENGTH is a blind used by Waite and many
artists/writers/printers ever since. It's like attributing the
letter 'Sin to The Fool, when everyone knows it's Taw.
Click to expand...

  • It is not a blind. In the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's tarot curriculum, Strength was numbered 8 and Justice was numbered 11. (See, e.g., Wang's _The Qabalistic Tarot_ and Wang's Golden Dawn Tarot deck.) Thus, Waite, having learned tarot in the GD, followed GD practice on these points. However, to pay lip service to his GD vows of secrecy, Waite writes in _Pictorial Key to the Tarot_ at p. 100: "For reasons which satisfy myself, this card has been interchanged with that of Justice, which is usually numbered eight." Thus, while the GD and Waite number Strength and Justice differently from the Tarot de Marseille (which numbers Strength as 11 and Justice as 8), I wouldn't get tied up in knots over this. For example, it's interesting that the Jacques Viéville tarot from the early 1600s attributes VII to Justice, VIII to Chariot, IX to Strength and XI to Hermit.
  • I don't agree with you that 'everyone' is of the view that Taw, the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, is attributed to the Fool. For example, the Golden Dawn attributes Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, to the Fool.

Edited to correct first bullet.
 

Fulgour

Rusty Neon said:
I don't agree with you that 'everyone' is of the view that Taw, the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, is attributed to the Fool. For example, the Golden Dawn attributes Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, to the Fool.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we shouldn't say, but you do see the very obvious letter 'Sin on the tunic of the RWS Fool? And then there is Waite's other little bit of fun, putting The Fool between XX and XXI in his possibly too hastily written book... a double blind?
 

Fulgour

...and there, just to the lower right of The Fool's tunic,
letter 21 of the ancient Hebrew alphabet: 'Sin

THE FOOL (by A.E.Waite, according to his book)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/img/ar00.jpg

So then, of course it is likely VIII and XI were transposed as
part of an elaborate Libra-Scales & Leo-Lion double blind.
 

Rusty Neon

I've corrected the contents of the first bullet in my 2nd post to this thread.
 

Rusty Neon

Fulgour said:
Based on original research by Robert V. O'Neill,
Strength has always been numbered Eleven.

http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/8.htm

Justice as Eight was never in question.
Click to expand...

I'll leave it to the readers of this post to compare your summary above of O'Neill's findings with the text of O'Neill's articles on Strength and Justice. Onto the substantive issue, I don't see how it can be said that Strength has 'always' been numbered Eleven or that Justice as Eight was never in question. As mentioned in my second post to this thread, the Jacques Viéville Tarot deck (early 17th century), for example, didn't number Strength as Eleven, nor did that deck number Justice as Eight. So much for 'always'.

However, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that such a thing as the Ür-Tarot existed and that its contents were known with some certainty. Let's assume further that such a hypothetical Ür-Tarot had Strength numbered as Eleven and Justice as Eight. Then, the question arises as to whether any variations to tarot can legitimately be made from what is in the Ür-Tarot. To my mind, that would be a question of one's personal view. My personal view on that question (and it's just my view and I sense your view differs from mine), is that tarot is capable of variety from any Ür-Tarot, including variety in trump card numbering, e.g., as in the Viéville deck and as in decks following the Golden Dawn synthesis.
 
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