What card suggests what - or not ?

[gregory]

Otherwise why have readers - just get the book of meanings and look the damn things up.

Doing that was exactly what cause my 30+ year reading hiatus.

I can understand why a client would want to know "what card means I'm going to Afghanistan?"

It isn't CLIENTS posting this question here, it is READERS. I can see a client saying "where did you get that from" - when the cards are there on the table and you have said something that puzzles them - but to try and identify what cards will say some particular thing in advance.... no....

 

[rwcarter]

OK. Where to start....

I can understand both the frustration surrounding "what card(s) = X" threads and the need for them. More experienced readers probably feel that the answer to that question is "all 78 of them under the right circumstances." But that answer isn't really all that helpful, is it? For those who aren't as far along their tarot journey, those threads are helpful because they show how other readers reach outside of the box to apply interpretations that often aren't found in LWBs or books.

I agree with gregory that no card(s) mean(s) X, Y or Z in every situation. It would be nice if each of those threads had a big flashing disclaimer that says something to that effect, but that's not going to happen. So, when I input into those threads, I always try to come up with at least one or two unexpected cards as a way of showing that cards one wouldn't think are applicable can actually be applied to whatever Z, Y or Z may be. And ideally the question shouldn't be "What card(s) suggest X?" but "How does each of the cards suggest X?"

Just like those who can ride bicycles probably didn't just jump right on a 10 speed bike but probably learned how to manipulate a bike with training wheels first, these what card(s) suggest(s) threads can be seen as training wheels for some readers. I would bet that at least once a day somewhere on Aeclectic at least one member types that readers need to get away from or expand upon the book meanings that they've learned. How are readers supposed to do this except through practice and through seeing how other folks do it and trying to mimic that? I know how to cook, but that doesn't mean that I automatically know how to make a creme brulee. But if I saw someone make one, I could probably mimic the steps they took. My creme brulee might not be as good as theirs, but at least I'd have an idea of how it's done and then I could keep practicing based on what I know and what I've observed. And with enough practice, I bet I could make a pretty decent creme brulee. I believe the same is true with learning how to think outside the box where interpretations are concerned.

At the end of the day there's no rule that says that anyone has to post in any thread. Tired of what card suggests threads? Pass them by. But remember that most of us were at the point at sometime in our tarot journey where all we knew were the book/LWB meanings. And most of us didn't just magically one day begin to think outside the box where interpretations are concerned. And I'm of the school that believes that it's better to teach a man to fish than to give a man a fish. That's why I try to include an out of the ordinary card and why I don't provide an exhaustive list of how all 78 cards apply to whatever the topic is.

While the exercise is valuable in and of itself, I fear that it does encourage the Tarot student's mind into a sort of rut whereby each card exists in isolation in its own little box, where Three of Cups = x, y, and z, and a = 4 of Swords, Hermit, High Priestess . . . and so on.

I agree with thorhammer that those exercises can encourage students who aren't as far along their tarot journey to associate specific cards with specific topics (or vice versa). That can be a bad thing, but I think it's also part of the learning process. When most students begin their school careers, they're taught rote memorization. After some number of years, they're shown how to take seemingly disparate facts and connect them. Finally students have the tools to free associate and make connections that no one else ever taught them. (Whether or not they use those tools is another point, one that's not relevant to this discussion.)

So I believe these threads are helpful to people in their tarot journey. I also agree with Grizabella

I think a lot of the "what card means this?" questions are asked by people hopeful of finding THE cards that would mean what they want to know in readings without having to spend all the time learning how Tarot really works. And I also suspect that a variation on the theme: "I got X card as indicating his feelings for me, what does it mean?" is a way to sneak past the "no free readings" rule by just cutting to the chase on what they really wanted to know from a spread.

but believe that those users are in the minority instead of the majority.

And for better or worse, RWS is "the best" tarot system as much as Microsoft makes "the best" operating system. Both have a large base of users, but even as someone who cut his teeth on RWS-style decks, I still wouldn't say that RWS is "the best" system. I think most would agree that RWS is one of the "Big Three" systems (the others being TdM and Thoth). Since TdM pips don't have as narrowly defined meanings as those of RWS, it really doesn't make sense to ask, "What minors indicate pregnancy?" for TdM style decks. And the Thoth doesn't have as large a base of users as RWS does. So it makes sense to me that answers provided in these threads are almost always RWS-based. But that doesn't mean that folks who use other systems can't also participate in those threads. Just preface your answer with the system you're coming from. That particular "unusual" answer might be just the one the original poster needed.

It isn't CLIENTS posting this question here, it is READERS. I can see a client saying "where did you get that from" - when the cards are there on the table and you have said something that puzzles them - but to try and identify what cards will say some particular thing in advance.... no....

Not a disagreement per se, but a different perspective. As a newer reader, if I've never given any thought to how the 7 Swords might be related to marriage, why would that thought occur to me in the middle of a reading I'm doing for someone else? But if I've posted a thread on "what cards mean marriage" and gregory, despite her distaste for such threads, happens to mention that the 7 Swords could represent an elopement, that association might stick in the back of my mind so that when I saw that card in a spread, the proper synapses might fire for me to focus on that aspect of that card.

I'm sure I've missed other points that I wanted to make and I've probably also not clearly stated the points that I have made. But this post is pretty long and I need to get back to work.

Rodney

 

[ana luisa]

Although I agree with you all that it is virtually impossible to assign a fixed meaning to a certain card, I think I understand why some readers may resort to that. I remember when I started reading and the sheer amount of possibilities did not give me a sense of freedom but panic. It is very well to say that you may have an infinite number of combinations and , as a result, of definitions and interpretations. But I wonder how a novel reader would be able to face this and get started. Not to mention they also know that going hand in hand with the meanings and their interpretations there's the ellusive "intuition" even harder to define and impossible to teach.
I think what bothers me most is not the meaning as a starting point but as an end in itself. We have to start "somewhere" but should not get stuck at the start line

 

[gregory]

ana luisa - I do get where you are coming from; I do recall, on the OTHER hand, looking up meanings and being panicked because if THAT card means THAT and THIS one means THIS then my sitter is going to THE OTHER.... - scary stuff !

I can understand both the frustration surrounding "what card(s) = X" threads and the need for them. More experienced readers probably feel that the answer to that question is "all 78 of them under the right circumstances." But that answer isn't really all that helpful, is it? For those who aren't as far along their tarot journey, those threads are helpful because they show how other readers reach outside of the box to apply interpretations that often aren't found in LWBs or books.

Fair enough, I guess ! There are just SO many lately, and the one where I threw a wobbly was a real corker and IMHO positively dangerous.....

Just like those who can ride bicycles probably didn't just jump right on a 10 speed bike but probably learned how to manipulate a bike with training wheels first,

This may explain a lot. I cannot ride a bike either - and doctors have begged me NEVER to try again

these what card(s) suggest(s) threads can be seen as training wheels for some readers. I would bet that at least once a day somewhere on Aeclectic at least one member types that readers need to get away from or expand upon the book meanings that they've learned. How are readers supposed to do this except through practice and through seeing how other folks do it and trying to mimic that?

Got you there too.

Not a disagreement per se, but a different perspective. As a newer reader, if I've never given any thought to how the 7 Swords might be related to marriage, why would that thought occur to me in the middle of a reading I'm doing for someone else? But if I've posted a thread on "what cards mean marriage" and gregory, despite her distaste for such threads, happens to mention that the 7 Swords could represent an elopement, that association might stick in the back of my mind so that when I saw that card in a spread, the proper synapses might fire for me to focus on that aspect of that card.

Hm. O.....K..... (I think.....)
But why it might occur to you that 7 Swords could mean that in the middle of a reading would be that you would not be looking at the 7 of swords AS SUCH; you would be looking at (well, let's stick with RWS so we can all see what I see....) the image of a guy apparently sneaking away with 5 swords and reluctantly looking back at the two he couldn't carry.

There's a difference.... I think.

Thanks for joining in. This really is a big issue for poor little me..... and yes I could avoid such threads and usually do, but this time one rather startling header got my attention.....

 

[AJ]

I like those threads.
More experienced readers always preface their posts in them by saying it depends on the question, how it is worded, the other cards in the spread...

but if someone is asking the question it means they are mentally progressing beyond keywords and trying to learn to think outside the box.

Regardless of the focus of any forum, there is a cycle.
New members ask many of the same questions
Older members often tire of those questions

But in a healthy forum there are always folks on the middle ground who know the answers and will take the time to answer them, nurturing more middle grounders to take their place when they move on to bored, dead, gone, or whatever. It is the natural course~

 

[Aerin]

I remember getting a library book once that not only gave definitive meanings for each card, but then went on to do it for 2 card and 3 card combinations as well. It was a Marseilles deck that was used, and the whole thing completely confused me. I've seen playing card books that do the same thing. So I wonder whether such questions come from that style of reading - something that I'm not capable of doing (or perhaps don't want to be).

I have one of those Ancien Tarot of Marseilles (Grimaud) copyright 1969 with that style and some of those meanings are hysterical (IMO). e.g.

The HIGH PRIESTESS inverted followed by TEMPERANCE upright also means bewilderment, hesitation, almost unsurmountable difficulties. It must generally be considered that all hope is lost

or, my all time favourite:

The HERMIT followed by the WORLD. These two cards do not hold any meaning, for the WORLD gives too general a meaning and the HERMIT one which is too restricted.

Aerin

 

[gregory]

I think even my brain works better than that !!!

ETA do you remember what it was, she asked with interest ?????

 

[Gidgee]

I'd like to put in a view from a New to Tarot person.

Whilst I don't think that I've asked specifically "what card means X" on the forum, I know that I have looked through the forum on many an occasion to find examples of what a card means and the myriad of possible interprettions that MAY be assigned to it - in response to answering the exact same question for myself.

I have started out with one deck and one book - sharman caselli - which I believe is a RW off take - and I have found that this helped me get started. (I do however feel that I need to work with some other decks as I feel that I am not getting the "connection" with them that some people talk about.....that's another thing!) Without a book, or some words from other sources, I'd have found the whole thing way too insurmountable.

I am now just starting to go with my own instinct on what a card means and indeed how it fits into a whole spread. I am finding that the more I read, the more I realise that a card can mean pretty much anything that you perceive it to within the context of a reading. I am also finding that I can become MORE confused the more I learn!!

I am also noticing that responses to a question may not always be related to the deck the Querent used in the first place - it just goes to show that gaining ideas/thoughts from a variety of sources can help. I know that sometimes when I read an interpretation or someone's take on a card I have thought -"how on earth did that person read X meaning into that card? When I do some research and find an image of the particular deck and card referred to, the response makes a whole lot more sense. This, I think, also relates to the fact that the more decks you have been exposed to and the longer you read from Tarot the more meaning and association you are going to develop.

I guess the thing is - a person needs to start somewhere, and if by asking "What card means this, or may mean this" gets a response from someone - then for better or worse, the person who asked the question has got another viewpoint to ad to their growing database of knowledge!!

Cheers,
B

PS I'd also like to thank all the FANASTIC people in the forum who take the time to respond to us Newbies - one day, I'm sure, we Newbies will be able to reciprocate.......

 

[thorhammer]

To echo Rodney . . . "OK. Where to start...."

I agree with thorhammer that those exercises can encourage students who aren't as far along their tarot journey to associate specific cards with specific topics (or vice versa). That can be a bad thing, but I think it's also part of the learning process. When most students begin their school careers, they're taught rote memorization. After some number of years, they're shown how to take seemingly disparate facts and connect them. Finally students have the tools to free associate and make connections that no one else ever taught them. (Whether or not they use those tools is another point, one that's not relevant to this discussion.)

There is a fundamental difference here; that children, by virtue of being children, learn better and faster than adults. So rote learning is a way of giving them a base from which to springboard, while in the case of adults, rote learning presents the danger of leading a person down the path of believing that all there is to be learnt is to be rote learnt, with no input or original thought needed from the individual. I know this not only because it is scientifically proven, but because I have identified this deficiency in myself, and fight to overcome it in my Tarot studies.

So it makes sense to me that answers provided in these threads are almost always RWS-based. But that doesn't mean that folks who use other systems can't also participate in those threads. Just preface your answer with the system you're coming from. That particular "unusual" answer might be just the one the original poster needed.

See, I think this point just avoids the issue. If everyone were to go into one of those threads and post a card, so that there is a list of cards as long as your arm from an equally long list of different decks, where does that leave the OP? If everyone who has noted the newbie POV here is correct, then that will only panic the questioner!

The crux of the matter is laziness, and people being spoilt for choice. People are too lazy to get down and devote enough time with one deck, so they just use a generic RWS-ish image in their heads, while confusing themselves utterly with deck after deck after deck, in the belief that more decks makes one a better reader. Time and effort make one a better reader, not more decks, not more "what card/s mean/s x" threads, not more time on AT.

At the end of the day there's no rule that says that anyone has to post in any thread. Tired of what card suggests threads? Pass them by.

See, this is what makes me think that this thread relates to that Broken Wheel one started by He Who Must Be Obeyed a few days ago - while I don't agree with him on many points, I do agree with him that in any community there must be leadership, and passively passing those threads by, those of us who could or would lead are not doing our bit. This thread, that we're in right now, is important and needs to be nutted out. Kudos to gregory for starting it.

Grizabella - I agree that some use the Using Tarot Cards as a cheat around the Your Readings rules.

AJ - What you say about forum cycles is tooo true, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from the experience and learn ourselves how better to teach, mentor, lead and learn in our turn.

\m/ Kat

 

[rwcarter]

If everyone were to go into one of those threads and post a card, so that there is a list of cards as long as your arm from an equally long list of different decks, where does that leave the OP? If everyone who has noted the newbie POV here is correct, then that will only panic the questioner!

A long list of cards from different decks that might apply to a given topic based on their imagery probably would confuse most questioners, but I doubt that it would confuse them all.

The crux of the matter is laziness, and people being spoilt for choice. People are too lazy to get down and devote enough time with one deck, so they just use a generic RWS-ish image in their heads, while confusing themselves utterly with deck after deck after deck, in the belief that more decks makes one a better reader.

Using the fish analogy, again, is it really laziness if someone is sitting on the shore hungry because s/he doesn't know how to fish? I don't think so. But once the person has been shown how to fish, if they're still sitting on the shore hungry, then I agree with you that laziness may be involved. I don't believe that most newish readers can be expected to make the kinds of associations often pointed out in those "what card" threads without being shown how first. When I first started with tarot 17 years ago, I never would've been able to see the 4 Pentacles as voluntary infertility, as I stated in one of those "what card" threads in the last week or two.

Let's say user AAAAA (I checked and there isn't one) put up one of those "what card" threads. I'd have no problem with answering (and I usually give an explanation why instead of just listing cards) cause I'm from the "Teach a Man to Fish" school. I'd probably also answer the second "what card" thread AAAAA started cause it takes time and practice to be able to associate the cards outside of the box in which they were learned. I'd probably give AAAAA the benefit of the doubt the third time around. If there were a fourth thread, especially without any of AAAAA's ideas listed, then the thought would cross my mind that AAAAA wanted to be fed fish that other people caught instead of learning how to fish him/herself. And I would pass that (and all future "what card") thread(s) by AAAAA by.

Time and effort make one a better reader, not more decks,

I agree up to here. If one wants to truly learn to read tarot cards, one has to put the effort in. There are no shortcuts.

not more "what card/s mean/s x" threads,

Let's agree to disagree on this point.

not more time on AT.

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree here. There are a lot of resources here on AT that can help readers of all skill levels with their tarot journey, whatever that may be and wherever they may be in it. AT can't replace the effort one needs to put in oneself, but it can augment it.

I do agree with him that in any community there must be leadership, and passively passing those threads by, those of us who could or would lead are not doing our bit. This thread, that we're in right now, is important and needs to be nutted out. Kudos to gregory for starting it.

I haven't read but a tiny tiny fraction of the thread you're talking about, but if I understand what you mean by leadership as applied to "what card" threads, leadership could very easily turn into lecturing and/or pontificating. Just because >> I << think that tarot should or shouldn't be learned in a particular way or that certain types of threads or questions aren't the best way for people to learn doesn't mean that my way is right. My way is right for me. It may be right (as is or with some modifications) for someone else, but that's not up to me to decide. I try to lead by example, showing how/why I've come to the conclusion I've listed because just listing a bunch of cards doesn't really do the original poster any good. I don't try to lead by telling someone that's the wrong way to learn or that they're being lazy by not putting the time in with their deck and coming up with the answer themselves.

Grizabella - I agree that some use the Using Tarot Cards as a cheat around the Your Readings rules.

I've already agreed with this statement. But is there a way to deal with that? If those users are the minority and/or the threads they start to thwart the Your Readings rules are in the minority, do we punish the majority of folks who are creating those threads to try to learn or to get past a block they're having with a particular card or subject? Is punishing the many for the sins of the few really the answer? Or do we accept the sins of the few for the greater good of the many?

AJ - What you say about forum cycles is tooo true, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from the experience and learn ourselves how better to teach, mentor, lead and learn in our turn.

I think you've hit on an excellent point! AT is a learning environment. But are there really any mechanisms for mentoring or tutoring here? Should there be?

Over in the Spreads forum, I've started a series on collaborative spread creation. The purpose is to show folks who want to create spreads of their own how to create a spread from start to finish. Because it's collaborative, no one person's will (not even my own) gets enforced on the process. Should/could there be something similar for expanding one's tarot learning? Something along the lines of a Tarot Buddy? Details would need to be worked out and forum rules would need to be adhered to, but does that sound like a worthwhile venture that's also doable?

Rodney