What's so great about the Jacques Vieville Tarot?

le pendu

valeria said:
What really got me was when you posted scans of the cards from the different decks side by side. I was stunned! I have actually been gathering TdMs lately - but haven't read with them yet. I think I was putting off having to deal with the pips (reading with unillustrated pips is going to be new for me). But when I saw this deck's I saw something I can work with.

So I'm off to hunt for one! :D

In an earlier post, Thinbuddha pointed out how great the pips were to read with, he shared some great insights.
 

jmd

I am not very familiar with the iconographic representation of St James, but would have thought that if indeed the Vieville Sun was of this figure, than the naked rider, with a very clear bi-coloured flag, would be a tradition that could be exhumed.

Perhaps it is - as I said, I am not very familiar with his iconographic representation, either at the time, or earlier as well as later.
 

roppo

In passing St James the Greater seems to have some relations with the number XIX, the golden number. I have a printed book of hour leaf (1507)which shows a golden number wheel with a figure of the saint in the centre.

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~elfindog/actr01a.htm

But personally I hold that the Sun children of TdM are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist, and the Vieville child is a presentation of the girl-child depicted as "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" in the Song of Solomon.
 

prudence

St James is sometimes shown in paintings on horseback, holding that flag, trampling a Moor.
 

jmd

I accept that the horseback and flag-carrying allusion is strong. The 'problem' lies, I would suggest, in that St James is not (to my knowledge) ever depicted naked, nor, it would seem, with a two-toned banner or flag. These would be very specific if intended as St James - including the common red cross on his banner, I would suggest.

Still, further reflections on this card as intended St James may lead to new discoveries about the depiction of this Saint that we may have simply 'forgotten'... or of another very specific saint!

However there is also the further aspect that roppo mentions: the figure appears to be intended more as feminine than as masculine from the shape of the breasts.

The reference roppo makes to the Song of Songs 6:10 ("fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners"), seems to me to be a far more apt fit of the Vieville card.

Perhaps it should be noted that Vieville would have used the (in this instance incorrect) Septuagint translation of the text, which does indeed render the last phrase as 'bannered hosts' (rather than the likely more correct reference to cluster of stars. Cf Bloch & Bloch The Song of Songs, 1995, p191 for the notes on translation).

... this is one aspect I really like about looking in detail at some of these early decks, both as single cards and in sequence: they lead to their own revelation and likely references but encouraging us to look at numerous aspects both broadly and meticulously, without in any manner taking away from our individual decisions or preference for using the image in still other ways!
 

le pendu

So... It's Lady Godiva then?

;)
 

prudence

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of if I were to make a piece for a certain Vodou lwa, I might be able to use the image from this card to reperesent that lwa. (the Sun card)

I do see where roppo is coming from though, and consider it the more likely reference. I just like drawing links, and this seems very intune with Vodou in general.
 

le pendu

As jmd points out.. these connections and thoughts are wonderful to enjoy and explore.

It's one of the things I love most about studying tarot... the connections.. and all of the possible relationships. I think sometimes that just studying tarot should be enough to earn a history or art degree.

Look at all of the wonderful possibilities that have been brought up in this thread alone.

I can't think of a St. James image with him naked on the horse.. but I'm glad you brought it up, I've enjoyed revisiting him, and will remember it if another connection become up!
 

jmd

I absolutely concur!