Where does "True Will" come from?

[yogiman]

As to humility, I agree it has no place in Hermetics, at least not the Western accepted idea of it (which normally means sacrifice and suffering). On the contrary, what you try to do Hermetically is enlarge yourself, not become aware of how small you are

Strange. This really goes against the tenet of spirituality. Don't fool me. Enlarging yourself means inflating your ego.

It is good to be realistic about your shortcomings, and to be humble towards the higher self within other people.

 

[Zephyros]

Why would I want to fool you?

 

[yogiman]

This is the demise of american culture. Life is about balance (card VIII and card XIV). It is a good thing to be assertive, courageous, exploring, individualistic (yang values), but for sure it should be balanced by traits as humility, understanding, receptiveness(yin values).

I am curious to know how the atmosphere is in thelemite circles. Is there a special appeal for people with sociopathic tendencies?

 

[Abrac]

The elephant in the room that everyone seems to be tiptoeing around is God. The idea of God is hard to erase even for occultists. It's almost always present though expressed in terms of "principles." Even LaVey devoted a whole chapter in his Satanic Bible to the idea of "God" as conceived by the Satanist.

New Age gurus explain the true Self as a piece of a Universal Self or Cosmic Consciousness. I've heard it explained using the human body as a metaphor in which each person is an individual cell. From what I know of True Will then, it seems to be that which is an extension of the Cosmic Consciousness or "God principle," to use the language of the occult. It's in everyone but usually has to be discovered through a process of unlearning. What makes it "true" is its association with the abiding and Universal as opposed to the transient.

In occult doctrine I don't think I've ever come across any description of the Universal beyond general principles; more often than not it's referred to as a Mystery. Sometimes it's described as Love in an impersonal sense; or as a Universal Governor.

 

[Zephyros]

I am curious to know how the atmosphere is in thelemite circles. Is there a special appeal for people with sociopathic tendencies?

No, quite the contrary. From what I've read, these people are not tolerated. The reason for this is simple; the Law is "Do What Thou Wilt," not "do what you want." The difference between the two sentences is central to Thelemic philosophy. Read Duty, by Aleister Crowley. It does not encourage hedonism, quite the opposite.

http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/duty.html

In a nutshell, as I said, the idea is not to do as you want, as what you want may not be your Will. Here's an example, I used to smoke a pack a day, and have since went down to about six cigarettes a day. The compulsion to smoke is not my Will, as it is exactly that, a compulsion due to addiction. I want to smoke, but cannot use Thelema to justify it. This can be expanded to other things, such as promiscuity that is carried out for the wrong reasons, drug abuse, staying in a loveless relationship because of obligation, etc. Carrying out one's Will entails the greatest discipline. All that you speak of, humility, receptiveness, etc., is inherent in Will, but not because of an old sun god looking over your shoulder and passing judgement over you, not because of fear.

Thelema, however, need not entail the occult. Although many Thelemites do, indeed, practice magick, this is not mandatory. In order to explain more fully the goals of the magician I would have to go into Thelemic philosophy, especially its pantheon and its relation to normal life. But it is better if I point you in the direction of the proper books that explain in better than I could, namely "Magick in Theory and Practice" and "Magick? Without Tears," both by Crowley. You might also be interested in issues of the Black Pearl, by the College of Thelema.

Oh, and I care little for the demise of American culture, not being American. Neither, for that matter, are you.

In occult doctrine I don't think I've ever come across any description of the Universal beyond general principles; more often than not it's referred to as a Mystery. Sometimes it's described as Love in an impersonal sense; or as a Universal Governor.

I agree with this. One of the problems is that God is simply what you make of it, hence too big a subject. In addition, one of the differences between Hermeticism and established religion is that the occultist seeks direct spiritual experience, hence most occult literature deals in the technology and means of attainment of that goal. The question of whether there is or isn't a God is thus rendered immaterial, something like "take care of the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves". Religion, on the other hand, is a set of precepts by which the adherant assures his salvation by indirect means.

Thelema, as far as I know, is a sort of bastard child of these two ideas, and is not confined solely to members of occult groups.

 

[Richard]

The elephant in the room that everyone seems to be tiptoeing around is God. The idea of God is hard to erase even for occultists. It's almost always present though expressed in terms of "principles." Even LaVey devoted a whole chapter in his Satanic Bible to the idea of "God" as conceived by the Satanist........

Joseph Campbell: 'God is a metaphor.'

 

[Richard]

This is the demise of american culture........

There is no definitive 'American culture' that I know of, and even if there were, it certainly would not be represented by the money-crazed reactionaries or the lunatics who want to rule the world. It's mostly these repulsive slime bags that make the news.

 

[yogiman]

There is no definitive 'American culture' that I know of, and even if there were, it certainly would not be represented by the money-crazed reactionaries or the lunatics who want to rule the world. It's mostly these repulsive slime bags that make the news.

I am referring to the forces that determine america's foreign and economic policies, and america does have some kind of democracy. Generally speaking there are low consumer ethics. But it seems to me that the gap between good and evil is equal to the gap between rich and poor. Probably the broadminded segment of the population also stands out from a global point of view.

 

[Richard]

I am referring to the forces that determine america's foreign and economic policies, and america does have some kind of democracy. Generally speaking there are low consumer ethics. But it seems to me that the gap between good and evil is equal to the gap between rich and poor. Probably the broadminded segment of the population also stands out from a global point of view.

The foreign and economic policies suck. You vote the bastards in and they continue the policies that are already in place. If an elected representative goes against the flow, they are locked out of the policy making committees. Even the president is controlled by his political party, which is concerned more about winning elections than what is good for the country. The majority had high hopes for our current president, but everything he tries to do gets sabotaged by the opposing party or by his own party which has to make ridiculous compromises in order to get anything through congress. Democracy doesn't work the way one thinks it should, when the power structure is locked in place.

This will all be deleted, but I had to have my say.

 

[Zephyros]

If I may, I think that equating Thelema with the perception of American consumerist hedonism is a completely unreasonable way to look at it, not least because it shows misperception on both sides. It simply sounds like so many articles (one of which I posted not long ago) demonizing Thelema as a drug and orgy filled world.

yohiman, it simply isn't like that, and your judgement is based on incomplete knowledge which you have demonstrated time and time again, both about esoteric subjects and apparently about America. Ignorance isn't a bad thing, provided one wishes to remedy it with knowledge, but your refusal and continued provocation simply show a deplorable lack of integrity.