Why does the picture outrank the number/element?

[coyoteblack]

I was going over numerology as it relates to tarot, and get really flabbergasted how a picture of a card changes it's number suit/element.

2 examples

3 of swords OMG HEARTBREAK or thoughts getting in the way of the emotions.

but 3's are about creativity abundance as it relates the the Empress.

the 3 of swords using just the number, suit, could mean be creative with you thoughts / communication. and abundance of new ideas are coming into your life!!

But the standard RWS picture has 3 swords piercing a heart. how does emotions invade the air/swords?


7 of swords the same issue
7 is the chariot will power or achiveing goals can even mean self made conflicts like taking on a new job also 7s are about magic and spirituality
why would 7 of swords be about thieves ?

Thank for reading all, I generally use number/suit then image but this can be confusing.

 

[wind]

Hi!

I see it like this: 3 of swords for instance - I see it as "opening" card, that means where things get out in the open that were repressed or undecided before (as in 2 of swords). When they get out in the open, it can hurt because things that we didn't want to see, may surface.

7 of swords I never see as thiefs - this card goes perfectly with the suit and the number, for me this is the card of mental planning, calculation to achieve what you want. It is not necessarily deceit, it is just about cunningness - and this goes perfectly well with number 7 and the Chariot who wants to direct things towards victory. But because it is about planning it usually doesn't involve anyone else, keeps thoughts to him/herself to make sure of the progress.

Just my take.

 

[blackroseivy]

What you say makes perfect sense, wind. My high recommendation is for "The Tarot: History, Symbolism & Divination" by R. Place, the way he explains things is very like what you said.

Remember, too, that this was the interpretation that A. E. Waite put on the pip cards - he had his own ideas connected to the Golden Dawn, etc. when he came up with them.

Oh, & another thought: if the meanings did nothing but replicate what you had in the Majors, that would be sorta redundant & not very productive - no?

 

[coyoteblack]

Wind I pretty much see the 7 of swords the same way. I think of it as " that coyote wisdom"

I like your meaning of the 3 of swords kind of like like someone told you some thing that hurts but it never-less is the truth and needs to be out in the open?

blackroseivy thank for you insight I actually purchased Mr Place book at the last Tarot Studio when he went to dinner with of few of us.

I agree that if the minors were but a reflection of the majors it would be boring , my point though is the common meaning of those 2 cards does not fit with the number/suit. where as with most of the 3's you can see a creation aspect.

 

[AJ]

But the standard RWS picture has 3 swords piercing a heart. how does emotions invade the air/swords?

Swords are discovery,
cups are feelings and emotions re: the discovery.
Wands are action, what you do about those feelings,
and Pents are the outcome.
That is pretty simplified, but basic. If I'm wrong I hope someone comes along and sets me straight

 

[FaireMaiden]

There is no creation without destruction... nor destruction without creation... The 3 of Swords is the necessary shattering/destruction of a presently-held mental illusion/projection {imprinted indelibly on the emotional body to really bring the point home, hence, the heart being pierced by the swords}... This shattering makes way for the understanding that there ARE other awarnesses that need to be perceived, thereby providing other choices, wiser choices...

The mental body is shattering the romanticism and sentimentality that we unconciously perceive, and therefore project, as the ideal in association with whatever circumstance is in question... It is, in effect, the 'clarion call' and is most appropriate to the Empress, in that, one is not so much 'creating' anything, but rather 'perpetuating' an untenable illusion...

It is the 'feminine' Empress essence that brings 'life'... but every life brought forth has an inherent death sentence built-in... It is the 'feminine' essence that 'knows' when a thing should be born and when a thing should die... whether that 'thing' be mental, emotional, physical, or spiritual...

 

[Kenny]

I wouldn't say that having the minors as being reflections of the majors as being a waste of cards. All you have to do is look out of the window at different times of the day to understand that different conditions change the view of the world.

The majors may be the brightest and clearest view, say midday, but there is still dawn, sunset, night, early morning, late evening, and the like to consider.

It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Zephyros]

I agree with others here that it is all a matter of how you take it. Three may be a number of creativity where the Empress is concerned, but three swords sticking into her heart stop the flow of all that, and the heart bleeds. For me, communication, or lack of it, is the keyword for the 3 of swords.

Numerically, this could fit, if through a different pint of view.

 

[Sulis]

I was going over numerology as it relates to tarot, and get really flabbergasted how a picture of a card changes it's number suit/element.

2 examples

3 of swords OMG HEARTBREAK or thoughts getting in the way of the emotions.

but 3's are about creativity abundance as it relates the the Empress.

the 3 of swords using just the number, suit, could mean be creative with you thoughts / communication. and abundance of new ideas are coming into your life!!

But the standard RWS picture has 3 swords piercing a heart. how does emotions invade the air/swords?


7 of swords the same issue
7 is the chariot will power or achiveing goals can even mean self made conflicts like taking on a new job also 7s are about magic and spirituality
why would 7 of swords be about thieves ?

Thank for reading all, I generally use number/suit then image but this can be confusing.

I completely agree with you. I too hate those 2 cards in Waite-Smith derived decks; they just don't make sense to me.

Maybe you should try using a deck with non-pictoral minors then you can forget about that pierced heart and that sneaky guy or look for decks that don't use the pierced heart and the sneaky guy - the 10 of Swords is another card that I don't like because I don't think the image used usually fits the meaning very well.

Take a look at The Renaissance Tarot by Helen Jones and Jane Lyle - it's wonderful and there is a study group too: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/renaissance-2/
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1121209#post1121209

 

[coyoteblack]

Sulis I could hug the stuffing out of you!! That is the other card that does not fit . In the DC they seem more fair, except the 10 of swords.

I read spiritual tarot and the 10 of swords has a almost complete different meaning.

I enjoy all other perspectives as well this is a interesting discussion. It just seems that Mr white decided air was not his friend. I could just have easily said 2 of cups is co dependence and it fits just as well with number and suit.