Your opinions on Crowley?

[Edge]

>because I made a remark implying the insignificance of opinions. It's a day later
> and I still stand by this remark. Opinions are pointless,

so is that one

Exactly! and thanks for your contribution. Now a quick lesson.... CLICK HERE

 

[ravenest]

Hello Ravenest,

Gidday mate!

Here is an example of what I feel are assumptions on your part:
I never claimed not to have a dark side

You have wrongly assumed what my assumption was; believe me, I do assume you, and all of us, have a dark side.

This is different than those who exalt and gratify this side by feeding it with whatever desires and experiences it wishes to drive a person to manifest in their life.

But I believe AC never taught this, nor do I agree with this simplistic exposition of part of the Law of Thelema.

I have read much of Crowley’s work and whenever I hear him being questioned I seem to see the Law of Thelema be brandished as proof of his worth as a teacher. But he had a good deal more works than these to share did he not? Other works include “Diary of a Drug fiend”, “Book of Lies” etc. What of the message he delivered with the example of his life path and the forces he allied himself with?

Well, for me The Law of Thelema is the essence and crux of his work. Diary of a Drug Fiend is a novel, mate! ... a novel, and beside it is all about the Law of Thelema anyway and the triumph of will and love over darkness, madness and drug addiction, have you actually read all of it???

To me it is inaccurate to state that Crowley was not into power at the expense of others. If you wish to ignore, excuse and downplay his personal life as “just for show and publicity” than perhaps dominating spirits and entities to satisfy his ego desires would qualify as “Obtaining power at the expense of others”? In fact please quote for me if you will where he teaches how to obtain Inner Strength without binding others in a magical working.

"Do what THOU wilt shall be the whole of the Law." (emphasis added)
LOVE is the Law, Every man and every woman is a star. Now perhaps you can show me a quote where Crowley teaches how to obtain Inner Stength BY binding others in a magical working?

And here is one from John Keats who was a Golden Dawn member at the time Crowley was attempting to climb the ranks:
This it seems has come to pass.

OOOpps, you blew that one eh?

 

[RViewer]

OK so you caught me, I was in a hurry and put the wrong name on the quote I also never claimed that I do not make mistakes I hope that gives my detractors something to giggle about.

Now it seems we come again to the Law of Thelema which Crowley also clarified as "Love is the law. Love under will". It is still the tidbit of choice for those who follow this path to prove the good intentions of these teachings. I have seen it often repeated that it makes no difference where the message comes from but why is that? Just for the heck of it lets take a look shall we?

Crowley received the Book of the Law from Aiwass, a messenger of Hoor-Paar-Kraat also known as Set the Egyptian version of the devil. In 1920 Crowley clarified exactly where he believed the Law he parroted to the world came from:

Crowley:
And Her [the Scarlet Woman's] Concoction shall be sweet in our mixed mouths, the Sacrament that giveth thanks to Aiwaz, our Lord God the Devil.

Now I have no problem in believing we are all Stars and should be allowed to find our own paths through life. I have a problem with black magicians using a tidbit of noble truth as bait to attempt to lure followers into a deeper rapport with forces that have a different agenda than that which they claim.

Ravenest, you were the one who claimed that the beast "is ALL for pointing out ways of finding your OWN power." I do not believe he ever showed anything except how to attract spirits that would do ones bidding. What do you claim was the gist of the "Magick" that he taught? Are you saying there is some other form of empowerment he ever mentioned? Please state it for me.

Edge, you seem to feel quite smug that you have discovered that all opinions are pointless. Congratulations! You are entitled to your opinions and to refrain from ever commenting on this forum in such a pointless endeavor as sharing thoughts under article A of "do what thou wilt" as recorded in the book of the law.

 

[Aeon418]

Crowley received the Book of the Law from Aiwass, a messenger of Hoor-Paar-Kraat also known as Set the Egyptian version of the devil.

RViewer, you really do know how to dig your own grave. Not only do you post random quotes without context, you seem to be totally ignorant of context full stop. Like I said before, I have yet to see any evidence that you have actually read any Crowley. If you had you would not be putting your foot in your mouth so often.

Since when has Hoor-Paar-Kraat aka Harpocrates been known as Set? Your comments and quotes about Crowley and the Devil show that you don't understand in the slightest what Crowley meant when he used the word in connection with Aiwass.

Try cracking the spine on your Book of Thoth and reading the chapter on the Devil. Also study these quotes from Magic in Theory and Practice. They will answer all your questions. I've even high-lighted one word to give you a clue.

This "Devil" is called Satan or Shaitan, and regarded with horror by people who are ignorant of his formula, and, imagining themselves to be evil, accuse Nature herself of their own phantasmal crime. Satan is Saturn, Set, Abrasax, Adad, Adonis, Attis, Adam, Adonai, etc. The most serious charge against him is that he is the Sun in the South. The Ancient Initiates, dwelling as they did in lands whose blood was the water of the Nile or the Euphrates, connected the South with life-withering heat, and cursed that quarter where the solar darts were deadliest. Even in the legend of Hiram, it is at high noon that he is stricken down and slain. Capricornus is moreover the sign which the sun enterers when he reaches his extreme Southern declination at the Winter Solstice, the season of the death of vegetation, for the folk of the Northern hemisphere. This gave them a second cause for cursing the south. A third; the tyranny of hot, dry, poisonous winds; the menace of deserts or oceans dreadful because mysterious and impassable; these also were connected in their minds with the South. But to us, aware of astronomical facts, this antagonism to the South is a silly superstition which the accidents of their local conditions suggested to our animistic ancestors. We see no enmity between Right and Left, Up and Down, and similar pairs of opposites. These antitheses are real only as a statement of relation; they are the conventions of an arbitrary device for representing our ideas in a pluralistic symbolism based on duality. "Good" must be defined in terms of human ideals and instincts. "East" has no meaning except with reference to the earth's internal affairs; as an absolute direction in space it changes a degree every four minutes. "Up" is the same for no two men, unless one chance to be in the line joining the other with the centre of the earth. "Hard" is the private opinion of our muscles. "True" is an utterly unintelligible epithet which has proved refractory to the analysis of our ablest philosophers.

We have therefore no scruple in restoring the "devil-worship" of such ideas as those which the laws of sound, and the phenomena of speech and hearing, compel us to connect with the group of "Gods" whose names are based upon Sht, or D, vocalized by the free breath A. For these Names imply the qualities of courage, frankness, energy, pride, power and triumph; they are the words which express the creative and paternal will.

Thus "the Devil" is Capricornus, the Goat who leaps upon the loftiest mountains, the Godhead which, if it become manifest in man, makes him Aegipan, the All.

The Sun enters this sign when he turns to renew the year in the North. He is also the vowel O, proper to roar, to boom, and to command, being a forcible breath controlled by the firm circle of the mouth.

He is the Open Eye of the exalted Sun, before whom all shadows flee away: also that Secret Eye which makes an image of its God, the Light, and gives it power to utter oracles, enlightening the mind.

The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God


"The Devil" is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has led to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that AIWAZ --- the solar-phallic-hermetic "Lucifer" is His own Holy Guardian Angel, and "The Devil" SATAN or HADIT of our particular unit of the Starry Universe. This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade "Know Thyself!" and taught Initiation. He is "the Devil" of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection. The number of His Atu is XV, which is Yod He, the Monogram of the Eternal, the Father one with the Mother, the Virgin Seed one with all-containing Space. He is therefore Life, and Love. But moreover his letter is Ayin, the Eye; he is Light, and his Zodiacal image is Capricornus, that leaping goat whose attribute is Liberty. (Note that the "Jehovah" of the Hebrews is etymologically connected with these. The classical example of such antinomy, one which has led to such disastrous misunderstandings, is that between NU and HAD, North and South, Jesus and John. The subject is too abstruse and complicated to be discussed in detail here. The student should consult the writings of Sir R. Payne Knight, General Forlong, Gerald Massey, Fabre d'Olivet; etc. etc., for the data on which these considerations are ultimately based.)

 

[ravenest]

Now it seems we come again to the Law of Thelema which Crowley also clarified as "Love is the law. Love under will". It is still the tidbit of choice for those who follow this path to prove the good intentions of these teachings.

I prove them by the way I enact them. By my life and lifestyle. By my teaching and cources in adolescent development and with adults, in my tarot readings. Its all about self liberation and the inherent power and genius we are all incarnated with. AS far as intent of the original teaching goes, I always assumed this was the intent. I never got from Crowley that others should be repressed in any way, EVERY man and every woman is a star. He wrote Book IV for every one (see intro).

I believe the intent of Thelema is like this: If we all followed our True Will as best as possible the world would be a better happier more fulfilling decent place. It would be more natural and have less rules regulations supressions and restrictions.

I have a problem with black magicians using a tidbit of noble truth as bait to attempt to lure followers into a deeper rapport with forces that have a different agenda than that which they claim.

So do I, and so did Crowley.

Ravenest, you were the one who claimed that the beast "is ALL for pointing out ways of finding your OWN power." I do not believe he ever showed anything except how to attract spirits that would do ones bidding. What do you claim was the gist of the "Magick" that he taught? Are you saying there is some other form of empowerment he ever mentioned? Please state it for me.

I thought I did already, then I asked you to give example of what you were claiming.

 

[ravenest]

Now it seems we come again to the Law of Thelema which Crowley also clarified as "Love is the law. Love under will". It is still the tidbit of choice for those who follow this path to prove the good intentions of these teachings. I have seen it often repeated that it makes no difference where the message comes from but why is that? Just for the heck of it lets take a look shall we?

Crowley received the Book of the Law from Aiwass, a messenger of Hoor-Paar-Kraat also known as Set the Egyptian version of the devil. In 1920 Crowley clarified exactly where he believed the Law he parroted to the world came from:

Yes the BoL did come from Aiwass, but if we are talking about the Idea of Thelema that's been around long before AC. Even witrh 'classical' authors.

 

[RViewer]

The Left, Right and Middle.

I admit to having given up the Crowley books I owned after reading them as I have never had books which attracted evil spirits more, other than while I read the Necronomicon.

The book I have been quoting from is the only one I kept that is related to him titled 'A Magic Life' a biography of Aleister Crowley written by Martin Booth. Now as to digging my own grave, a bit over the top wouldn’t you say? Crowley supporters seem all to keen on jumping on frivolities as an excuse to ignore the bigger issues being discussed. All of my questions posed as well continue to go sidestepped and unanswered.

I am happy to hear that Ravenest and possibly others have been able to convert these teachings to a life affirming use. I am not trying to strip anyone of their chosen hero or beliefs. I am sharing my ideas both so that I can learn from those who walk the path with the beast at there side as well as to highlight that there may be some strongly negative aspects to AC. I have no problem being open to opposing viewpoints and value the opportunity to learn from them.

Here are a few more quotes from AC taken from 'A Magick Life'. The first one is from a dream that he relates and one that I think gives a feel for his energy and demeanor:

Crowley:

“I was playing billiards and cut the cloth badly. I was with a publisher going through my work. He put aside a piece called ‘The King’s Tragedy’ as especially valuable. He made indecent advances. I would not till he had actually published my things. His wife was a wonderful evil woman. A very flushed deep red complexion and moustache and beard. These white and black mixed. After dinner with her we went into a strange Oriental room and slaves brought a wonderful Wine. And I think a great debauch must have followed.”

“Had a Jap girl, thus making the 34th nation”

“I have a fatal weakness for believing the best about everybody. In face of the plainest evidence I cannot believe in the existence of dishonesty and malice, and I always try to build with rotten material”

Here are a few quotes from a different teacher that I feel are provide an interesting contrast and are relevant to what we have been discussing so far:

Paracelsus:

"Who can protect himself from harassment and disaster if he does not know his enemy? No one. Hence it is indispensable to know him. For there are enemies of many kinds, and it is necessary to know the evil as well as the good."

"And even if the devil himself told us that silver and gold bring us salvation and medicine, or has the power to free us from prison and dungeons, even this would be in fulfillment of God’s command. He forces and compels our enemies to strengthen our life."

"Therefore, give heed to your inner garden … and also to yourself that you may learn that which no one can teach you, and which will amaze everyone."

 

[Aeon418]

I admit to having given up the Crowley books I owned after reading them as I have never had books which attracted evil spirits more, other than while I read the Necronomicon.

Erm..... evil spirits? Yeah.......ok.....ahem. LOL

Now as to digging my own grave, a bit over the top wouldn’t you say? Crowley supporters seem all to keen on jumping on frivolities as an excuse to ignore the bigger issues being discussed. All of my questions posed as well continue to go sidestepped and unanswered.

That's probably because the only issues that have been raised so far are frivolous ones based on misunderstanding.

 

[ravenest]

I admit to having given up the Crowley books I owned after reading them as I have never had books which attracted evil spirits more, other than while I read the Necronomicon.

Oh dear!!! You dont know the joke about the Necronomicon, you havent been taking that book seriously have you? 'Crowley books' need more than one reading they need study. What are these evil spirits that were attracted to you, why were they evil?

The book I have been quoting from is the only one I kept that is related to him titled 'A Magic Life' a biography of Aleister Crowley written by Martin Booth. Now as to digging my own grave, a bit over the top wouldn’t you say? Crowley supporters seem all to keen on jumping on frivolities as an excuse to ignore the bigger issues being discussed. All of my questions posed as well continue to go sidestepped and unanswered.

Excuuuuse me! RV, I have tried my best to answer your questions especially where you asked me:

"Ravenest, you were the one who claimed that the beast "is ALL for pointing out ways of finding your OWN power." I do not believe he ever showed anything except how to attract spirits that would do ones bidding. What do you claim was the gist of the "Magick" that he taught? Are you saying there is some other form of empowerment he ever mentioned? Please state it for me." And I answered you. Then I asked you to show me and quote where he does this and you still havnt, just complained about no one answering your question ????

Here are a few more quotes from AC taken from 'A Magick Life'. The first one is from a dream that he relates and one that I think gives a feel for his energy and demeanor:

RV have a look at the dream threads, good lord! I wonder what you would think of MY dreams ... especially the one where I am at World championship wrestling watching Brute bernard , I climb into the ring and ....
Its a DREAM bro' a dream . Dont you ever have wierd dreams.
[/QUOTE]
As far as sex with women from each country ... your not jealous are you

 

[ravenest]

' Unspeakible practices '

Here is a list of other peoples and groups that practice 'unspeakible practices' as religios /magical meditations (which would no doubt attract evil spirits), perhaps we can pick on them too?

+Vedic 5 M rite ( do lots of disgusting things you abhore).

+ Buddhist Meditation on Corpses ( bloody corpse, beaten and scattered corpses, worm-eaten corpse, gnawed-on-by-wild-beasts corpse, hacked in pieces corpse, purple corpse, putrid corpse).

+ Vedic 5 Skulls Rite ( get a human skull and 4 other animal skulls - including tiger and snake- draw a big pentagram on the ground, bury a skull at each point of the pentagram, sit in the middle and .....)

+ Tibetan Buddhist Chod Rite (dress up in dead human skin and bones, go down the graveyard and call up some demons, make them a stew out of brains and blood in a human skull saucepan ...)

Incidently, the people I have met that have practiced and taught these rites (monks, priests and lamas) were some of the happiest, smiliest compassionate people I have met.

Also some of the white light gurus I observe many following and worshiping have been busted for cheap dodgey magic tricks and child molestation.

Go figure.