Your thoughts on Crowley's opinion of divination...

[Fianic]

For those of you who've read The Chapter "Concerning Divination" in Book 4:

"One more observation seems desirable while on this subject. Divination of any kind is improper in matters directly concerning the Great Work itself. In the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel, the adept is possessed of all he can possibly need. To consult any other is to insult one's Angel. Moreover, it is to abandon the only person who really knows, and really cares, in favour of one who by the nature of the case, must be ignorant of the essence of the matter — one whose interest in it is no more (at the best) than that of a well-meaning stranger."

What do you guys think of this? I can understand that asking other beings may be improper to the Great Work, but "Divination of any kind is improper"?.

I personally don't think the last part is quite true at least. In Christopher Hyatt's book, he describes that before doing the ritual to attain Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel you should do a Tarot Reading beforehand.

In your experience, did your HGA get "insulted" if you asked another spirit about your Great Work?

Also one more passage:

"On the other hand, although the adept is in daily communication with his Angel, he ought to be careful to consult Him only on questions proper to the dignity of the relation. One should not consult one's Angel on too many details, or indeed on any matters which come within the office of one's familiar spirits. One does not go the the King about petty personal trifles. The romance and rapture of the ineffable union which constitutes Adeptship must not be profaned by the introduction of commonplace cares. One must not appear with one's hair in curl-papers, or complain of the cook's impertinence, if one wants to make the most of the honeymoon."

What do you guys think of this? Is it really so bad to consult your HGA on things other than the Great Work? Why not? Considering your HGA is the spirit that knows you best, why not ask about "personal trifles"?

Although I think for this last one, we have to carefully define what a "personal trifle" is.

Still what are your thoughts? This has bugged me for a while, although I never thought to ask this on here until now.

 

[Aeon418]

What do you guys think of this?

In the first quote the important part is: "In the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel, the adept is possessed of all he can possibly need. To consult any other is to insult one's Angel."

If one is Adept and has already acheived the K&C of HGA why on earth would they feel the need to consult the lesser "spirits" of Tarot, etc., on matters that directly concern the intimate union between the angel and the adept?

Compare the above with this quote of your own words. (My emphasis added)

I personally don't think the last part is quite true at least. In Christopher Hyatt's book, he describes that before doing the ritual to attain Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel you should do a Tarot Reading beforehand.

Spot the difference?

(Incidentally, this same confussion surrounds the use of HGA names in ritual. People quote that exact same passage when objecting to use of Aiwass at the heart centre during the LBRP.)

Is it really so bad to consult your HGA on things other than the Great Work? Why not? Considering your HGA is the spirit that knows you best, why not ask about "personal trifles"?

The second quote is again aimed at adepts.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing to ask about personal triffles. But it does sound a little like overkill to consult a Briatic being on trivia relating to Yetzirah or Assiah. That's not to say that you can't do it, but why would you want to go that high up the scale for something so small? It's almost like booking an appointment with the director of a big multi-national company and asking him why there is no toilet paper in the mens room. I'm sure the director could sort the problem out for you, but don't you think it would be more appropriate to simply ask the janitor?

Personal triffles are the sort of stuff that falls within the remit of ones "familiar spirits", like the Tarot for instance. They are perfectly adequte for answering these sorts of questions. (Plus the HGA-ized adept has an intuition of a different order to most people. Divinations consequently become more accurate than ever before.)

On top of that there is the sanctity and sacredness about the relationship between the HGA and the adept. Would you really want to soil it with trivia and triffles? Well you can if you want to, but it just seems so inappropriate. It's a bit like spending the perfect romantic evening with someone. The meal at the restaurant is perfect. The moon light walk is a dream. You end up in bed. The sex is amazing. You're both bathing in the after glow when suddenly you turn to her/him and say, "I think I need to take a piss. Should I go now or wait till later?" FAIL!

Personally I wouldn't even dare ask the cards that one.

 

[Fianic]

Interesting, it seems I interpreted that wrongly. i thought he meant in the process of attaining K&C.

So it's viable that other spirits can actually guide you to your HGA prior to attainment?

As to why you would consult other spirits, even after K&C: It is possible you're not altogether sure that the being you've invoked REALLY IS your HGA, and you want a third opinion. At least when starting off. It took Crowley years after 1904 to conclude Aiwass was his HGA IIRC.

What if you're invoking your HGA for the Tarot reading itself? I know of one reader who does that for ALL readings.

I suppose it depends what personal trifles really mean. What about stuff that's not directly related but can get in the way of the Great Work if not solved? Or if it's just something that's important to you.

Even though it's sacred, I do feel that if you're too keen on keeping the romance so to speak all the time, you'll be too on edge to be comfortable and enjoy the relationship. If you're really that intimate shouldn't you understand and forgive each other's flaws?

I toyed with the possiblity Crowley had that opinion because Aiwass himself was such a stern personality. Would that really apply to ALL others?

i want to ask about your opinions/experiences although I can understand this is extremely personal and we're not really meant to talk about, to a degree. That is why I skirted around this as generally as I can.

It's strange that even though we're not really meant to take about our individual HGAs, Crowley actually goes in great detail about Aiwass.

 

[Richard]

Interesting, it seems I interpreted that wrongly. i thought he meant in the process of attaining K&C.......

The quest for the KCHGA is a part of the Magnum Opus. I suppose Crowley is referring to the Great Work after the surrender of the Ego to the HGA. To me, that's a whole 'nother ball game, inconceivable at present.

After Tiphareth, according to Aeon418, I shall need to upgrade my Tarot deck to something more capable, wherein The Star leads to Chokhmah. Now, however, my immediate goal is LVX, not NOX. I'll worry about what lies beyond Sephirah 6 when the time comes.

 

[Fianic]

The quest for the KCHGA is a part of the Magnum Opus. I suppose Crowley is referring to the Great Work after the surrender of the Ego to the HGA. To me, that's a whole 'nother ball game, inconceivable at present.

After Tiphareth, according to Aeon418, I shall need to upgrade my Tarot deck to something more capable, wherein The Star leads to Chokhmah. Now, however, my immediate goal is LVX, not NOX. I'll worry about what lies beyond Sephirah 6 when the time comes.

i agree with you on the last point. I'm not altogether sure we SHOULD cross the Abyss. No one that I know of who supposedly has done so has had a good ending.

 

[Richard]

i agree with you on the last point. I'm not altogether sure we SHOULD cross the Abyss. No one that I know of who supposedly has done so has had a good ending.

I've had that same thought. Maybe they got impatient and tried to do so before they were properly prepared, or perhaps their "HGA" was an imposter and misled them. In any case, I doubt that I'll be ready for it in this lifetime.

 

[Zephyros]

I suppose it is kind of a contradiction. Many people in the world pray, but most would be at least mildly surprised if anyone actually answered on the other end. If K&C and discovery of your True Will can be possible only after relinquishing all that is not inherent to you, then merely the desire to do it or the intellectual pride that you are ready already prove you unfit. If that is so, then no one other than Crowley who says they did actually did it, if it can only be stumbled upon.

 

[Fianic]

I've had that same thought. Maybe they got impatient and tried to do so before they were properly prepared, or perhaps their "HGA" was an imposter and misled them. In any case, I doubt that I'll be ready for it in this lifetime.

That's my point exactly, is it not ok to ask other spirits to make sure you're not being misled by a false HGA?

I suppose it is kind of a contradiction. Many people in the world pray, but most would be at least mildly surprised if anyone actually answered on the other end. If K&C and discovery of your True Will can be possible only after relinquishing all that is not inherent to you, then merely the desire to do it or the intellectual pride that you are ready already prove you unfit. If that is so, then no one other than Crowley who says they did actually did it, if it can only be stumbled upon.

On the other hand if one consciously withholds themselves from perfect union, we're technically "black magicians" according to Crowley.

On the other hand I don't think Crowley was altogether above the intellectual pride of being Master of the Temple either.

 

[Zephyros]

If was assume for a moment that the word "saint" represents the perfect epitome of any given religion, then I think it is fair to say Crowley wasn't one. To be fair, I don't know if he ever said of himself that he was a perfect example of Thelema, either.

But apart from K&C, consider True Will. You can achieve one without the other, since one is something you may study a lifetime to reach while the other is a day to day struggle. Perhaps after K&C, asking lesser spirits if something or other is in accordance with your True Will is permissible, since it does deal with the "smaller" issues. I agree with you it is confusing, especially since I have attained neither. I can only hope that if anything like that happens, one would be in such an enlightened state that you would just "know" and the little things in life would cease to be a bother, as True Will precludes the possibility of conflict (perfect orbits and the like).

This person you mentioned, for example, have they achieved K&C? If so, who am I to argue? If not, it seems a little like raping your HGA, forcing the spiritual into the mechanical, somewhat like the Five of Discs (assuming, of course, that what they are evoking really is their HGA).

 

[Aeon418]

So it's viable that other spirits can actually guide you to your HGA prior to attainment?

Sure. But that doesn't mean the guidance offered is always correct. Below Tiphareth you must use your intuition because it's almost all you've got at that stage. (The HGA's connection with the pre-Adept is nearly all subconscious.) Of course the intuitive sense gets stronger the nearer you get to Tiphareth.

As to why you would consult other spirits, even after K&C: It is possible you're not altogether sure that the being you've invoked REALLY IS your HGA, and you want a third opinion.

A third opinion? Your question makes me think of someone having sex for the first time who needs to call their friend to verify the experience for them.

I get the feeling that you are somehow confusing the K&C of HGA with ordinary spirit summoning. The HGA isn't some spirit you can summon and constrain within a triangle so you can have a chit-chat. If anything it's the other way around. From the perspective of the macrocosmic angel you are the little elemental spirit in the triangle.

The K&C of HGA is, in one sense, the awakening of human consciousness to a direct perception of a greater and vaster part of itself that it was previously unaware of. The danger of the experience isn't doubt or unsureness. In fact it is the exact opposite. The K&C may be so intense and blinding that it overwhelms the mind of the adept.

You might find the Scholion to Liber Samekh informative. In particular section G. Crowley's description of the relationship between the Angel and the Adept is most illuminating.

At least when starting off. It took Crowley years after 1904 to conclude Aiwass was his HGA IIRC.

But Crowley did not achieve K&C until a few years later. And even after that it was another of couple of years before he consciously made the connection to Aiwass. (He didn't make the connection until he discovered the lost manuscript of the Book of the Law.) The important point to remember is that the conscious mind is always the last place where the penny drops.

What if you're invoking your HGA for the Tarot reading itself? I know of one reader who does that for ALL readings.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's standard magical practice to invoke the highest before consulting something further down the chain of hierachy.

I suppose it depends what personal trifles really mean. What about stuff that's not directly related but can get in the way of the Great Work if not solved? Or if it's just something that's important to you.

Magick in Theory and Practice, the opening section of chapter XXI should answer your question. Read it carefully.

Even though it's sacred, I do feel that if you're too keen on keeping the romance so to speak all the time, you'll be too on edge to be comfortable and enjoy the relationship. If you're really that intimate shouldn't you understand and forgive each other's flaws?

The angel is flawless. It's the adepts flaws and imperfections that have to be worked on during the remaining grades of adeptship. If necessary the the adepts life will be ripped apart and reassembled during the Adeptus Major 6=5 stage. (The pre-adept gets a foretaste of this, but on a different arc, as they cross the path of Peh. You must conform to the angel. It doesn't work the other way around. See AL II:9-13.

I toyed with the possiblity Crowley had that opinion because Aiwass himself was such a stern personality. Would that really apply to ALL others?

Aiwass was stern with Crowley when his personality/ego was being stubborn and restrictive. But then we all need an ass kicking sometimes when we're stuck in a rut. Especially when the little ego is convinced that it's petty little point of view is right and the rest of the universe is wrong. At such times it's best just to bend over, grab your ankles and smile through it.

i want to ask about your opinions/experiences although I can understand this is extremely personal and we're not really meant to talk about, to a degree. That is why I skirted around this as generally as I can.

You're already getting my opinons. Take 'em, or leave 'em.

Have I attained K&C? NO!
Have I had experience of states that are preliminary to K&C? Yes. But there is nothing uncommon or unusual in that. Lots of people have such experiences. Crowley mapped them on the Tree of Life. His A.'.A.'. was designed to produce these "opening" states in a structured and balanced way.

It's strange that even though we're not really meant to take about our individual HGAs, Crowley actually goes in great detail about Aiwass.

Crowley and Aiwass are kind of a special case which makes their relationship a little different.

I assume you know the connection between angel names and how they are a key to the nature of the angel. In the case of most people their HGA's name is a key to their own personal and private Great Work. Crowley is a bit different in that respect because his Great Work involved teaching the Great Work to others. He was also the prophet of Thelema, and his job was to announce it to the world. In a way Crowley's relationship with Aiwass had to have a public side due to the nature of what they were doing. This means that the name Aiwass has be a bit more universal and general than other angel names.

In Greek, Aiwass = 418.

In Hebrew, Aiwass (OIVZ) = 93.

The nature of Aiwass is the Great Work (418) in general and Thelema/Agape as a whole. For most other people their angels name are a specific expression of their own Great Work and their own unique Thelema as it manifests through them. In that case it probably won't be generally applicable to others and so the rule about keeping it to yourself.