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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
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Minderwiz 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeiifA View Post
Thank you for that. I do get the dominating part. I think the confusion this topic causes is due to 2 things. Firstly there is the problem of Zodiacal motion verses Diurnal motion, which, from my limited understanding, the Hellenistic astrologers considered primary. Secondly there is the problem of "to or from".

I think everything you state coincides with Houlding here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#sd
and this also:
http://astronor.com/sinister.htm

However, I still feel confused. I will reread all of what you state and those 3 pages and see if the confusion clears up. I also went to a thread at skyscript and that made the confusion worse.

Can you tell me if the information provided by the links posted are correct and equal to what Chris Brennan has in his course?

P.S. Hope you are feeling better
I can see your confusion because in the second link there's an error in the diagram. in that the arrow between Saturn and the Moon should be reversed. The text is correct, in this aspect Saturn dominates the Moon.

The third link is to a very confused article and one that shows no clear understanding, despite the author's qualifications. It appears to suggest the reverse of the Skyscript articles (and the reverse of reality). It is particularly confused because it seems to link the nature of the aspect to which planet is applying and then gets it wrong.

Take the example of a swift Mercury in 5 Aries and applying to Mars in 6 Leo; if Mars is the significator, then Mars will receive the sinister trine form Mercury; if Mercury is the significator, then he will form a sinister trine to Mars. The applying planet tells who is initiation or moving into the event.

This is badly expressed to say the least (and it gets worse later on). The use of the word 'form' shows lack of clarity and understanding. Mars does indeed receive the Sinister Trine from Mercury. But in the second case, Mercury receives the Dexter trine of Mars (and overcomes it). It does not 'form' a Sinister Trine (whatever that means).

The applying planet may tell us who is intiating the event but that is not always the case. The context of the situation tells us who does the 'initiating'. Quite clearly the Moon is slower than Saturn but can be dominated by Saturn, as the Skyscript 2 shows.

It seems to me that the error comes from a misreading of Lilly who correctly identifies the direction of Sinister and Dexter aspects but does not make it clear what he is talking about when he says the Dexter aspect is more forcible than Sinister (or he doesn't understand his source texts or he is using a source that is wrong). I looked at the first couple of examples quoted from Lilly and it is clear that Lilly is using the term correctly however there's no relevance to the issue of which is the stronger.

I then checked with Barbara Dunn's Horary Astrology Re-Examined and she says the Dexter aspects are stronger than the Sinister aspects, even producing a list. She attributes this to Lilly and says that both Lilly and those before him saw it that way. Her only other explicitly quoted source is Al-Biruni, wh does indeed list the dexter quartile (square) as stronger than the sinister quartile (square). He repeats this for the other aspects. However he doesn't make it clear exactly what he means by a dexter quartile (or at least he doesn't in my translation). His description of the aspects is very reminiscent of that given by Sahl about two hundred years earlier.

Sahl Ibn Bishr, who produced the first real Horary text, says:

...the sextile aspect is from the third sign and the eleventh. The square aspect is from the fourth sign and the tenth. The trine aspect is from the fifth sign (and the eleventh).....and the second sextile is stronger than the first sextile aspect and the second square is stronger than the first square aspect. And of the trine aspects, the second is tronger than the first

The Introduction to the Science of the Judgement of the Stars.

Now Sahl doesn't use the terms 'left' and 'right' but it is abundantly clear that an aspect cast in the direction of the sequence of signs (from elventh to first, from tenth to first and from ninth to first) is stronger than an aspect that goes against the direction of signs (from the third to the first, from the fourth to the first and from the fifth to the first).

Sahl is explicit and contradicts Dunn. Clearly she's wrong, but it's interesting that she is the Principal of the QHP program of which the author of the third link is a graduate.

I'd advise you not to use that third link. I doubt there's any real understanding behind it.

A point about Primary Motion. Yes the rotation is from left to right, that is the Sun, Moon and planets rise in the East (left in a horoscopic chart) and set in the West (right in a horoscopic chart) but you will notice that in the Hellenistic/early Medieval model, the overcoming planet is further ahead in diurnal motion - that is the planet in the tenth 'overcomes' the planet in the first. The one in the tenth has risen whereas the one in the first either has just risen or is below the Earth. The planet furthest ahead in diurnal (primary) motion wins.
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