Marius Cojoc  Marius Cojoc is offline
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I will use latin derivatives as well to make it more easier for users to read.

Saturn is indeed very special. Saturn is also Oikodespotes. Saturn rejoice only in his own diurnal domicile, Aquarius. In Capricorn he must share the power with Mars. In Obama chart, Saturn is in a trigonal figure with Mars. We have dealings with a primary form of testimony, where the stars take a stance and participate togheter on the issue, so the power is more than certain split. Saturn is disjunct with Aquarius, so the First Officer will be Mercury (Porphyry-joint domicile master topic)

You see, from hellenistic perspective, the significations of the five planets are derived by relating their basic principles to the concrete significations of the Sun and Moon. If the sect leader is not providing his gifts, the other members will not have what to work with. I will continue my exposure.

PS: I never seen the work of Elendiar written in other language than romanian.
Top   #231
Marius Cojoc  Marius Cojoc is offline
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Sun as Epikratetor will give tremendous power to the chart. We would aspect that Sun will provide gifts related with kingship, authority over the masses, friendships, public reputation, honors. Because of the sunset, we would aspect that the native shall benefit form Sun gifts especially on the last stage of life.

Sun is in the bound of Saturn. From my recent studies, I come to the conclusion that the bound lord of the Epikratetor is most fit to be Oikodespotes. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know for certian. Anyway, we would aspect that Saturn as Oikodespotes will provide for Obama, a saturnian agenda and saturnian gifts for the journey. Saturn is the nearest star form haven and in this chart is the most elevated (closest star to Mc). Obama is already a historic (Saturn) figure because is the first (Saturn), black (race issue, african-american, stranger) president (highest in rank) of United States.

In my opinion, Kurios of the chart is Mercury. It is well known that Obama is a politician, former lawyer and activist of civil rights.

My reasoning here will be explain when I shall have more time available.
Top   #232
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Yes, if we take the Sun as ultimate ruler, then the Sun is his own sign ruler and thus Oikodespotes and Saturn is the 'Co-operating Officer' So both Sun and Saturn have two roles in this chart. There are some Astrologers who would not allow the ultimate ruler to be the Oikodespotes, in which case the role falls to Saturn.

I agree with your descriptions but would point out an additional consideration.

The Lord of the Lot of Fortune is Mars, who also rules the tenth place and the MC. So Fortune and Career are linked through Mars, even though neither Mars nor the MC is configured to Fortune. Mars is in it's own Terms, and even though it is in the eighth of the radical chart it is does sextile the MC. Obama is likely not to have good fortune attending his actions but if he works hard he may well be able to succeed. That is reinforced by Jupiter ruling the Lot of Spirit, placed in the eleventh. Jupiter is in the Ascendant (just) and though retrograde links Spirit to the Ascendant - again Obama's actions in terms of his career will be effective - probably through friends and contacts (and from a modern perspective through political parties),
Top   #233
Marius Cojoc  Marius Cojoc is offline
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In my opinion, the ruler of the Part of Fortune will not be Mars. In fact, I think that the Sun will be also the Second Officer and the Overseer (Sunoikodespotes). Mars is indeed linked with Obama career. It's succeedent, swift and direct, visible in the sky and in his own bound. Mars always make distinctions and single out the native when it's effective. It gives domination and bold leaders. There is counteraction because stars from eight house tend to conduct unfavorable bussines for the native. Mars has no configuration to the Ascendant. Mars in Virgo, eight house, may suggest that Obama had dealings in his career with: secret and forge documents, lawsuits, spies, criminals etc. Because of Mars, I'm certain that Obama is having marriage issues.

Obama dosen't have a lucky chart in the sense of fortune. It's more like a illuminated native. In my opinion, the Part of Fortune and Spirit can't be judge in horoscopic sense because of the essential debilitation that I was talking about earlier.
Top   #234
Marius Cojoc  Marius Cojoc is offline
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Of course that Mars is the domicile lord of Aries, but there is a lack of configuration with his domicile. The sect favors the Sun , the lord of exaltation, to rule the Aries zoidion alone. If there is Fortune, in my opinion, it will be linked through Sun.

If there is Spirit, I agreed your opinion.
Top   #235
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Thank you

It is not a clear cut decision, as you said especially with the Moon both rising and in a succeedent sign - I have a sneaking suspicion that Schmidt would go for the Moon. We could look at both options Sun, and Moon if you wish and see which fits Obama's know career best.
We've both been tempted to use the Sun as the ultimate ruler, but I did suggest we looked at the Moon as an alternative, especially when we begin to look at his career. I'll just do a brief summary for the Moon at this point but I think any final decision here is going to be the result of our analysis of his life to date.

If we take the Moon as ultimate ruler (and Delphic Oracle has low confidence in both of them) That would mean that the Nocturnal sect planets tend to work for him, the dirunal planets tend to work against him. Mercury could go either way, in this chart it's below the horizon and in a diurnal sign but it's not aspected by malefics but does sextile the Moon and oppose Jupiter. As the Moon is in the domicile, trigon and bounds of Mercury and aspected by it, Mercury receives the Moon into Gemini. Mercury would be Oikodespotes, if we treat it as a nocutural chart and the Moon as ultimate ruler.

The Trigon Lords of the ultimate ruler will determine how well Life runs to its intended course. If we take the Moon, then the Trigon Lords are Mercury (Pivotal) Saturn (Decline) and Jupiter (Pivotal) - this suggests that most of Obama's life will be on course - that is the planets may well manifest their purpose for him. The weak part seems to be his middle years.

If we take the Sun as ultimate ruler, then the Trigon Lords are Sun (Pivotal) Jupiter (Pivotal), Saturn (Decline) and that would suggest that things run well for the first two thirds of life but then tail off in the last third. At the moment I'd say that the evidence seems to support the Sun as ultimate ruler - if Schmidt is right.

Saturn is Lord of the Ascendant either way, it's also in it's own bounds (which I missed first time round). So we have a highly determined, careful, persistant, cautious disciplined person who will keep at an issue till he's dealt with it.

Saturn is also bound lord of the Lot of Fortune - so to the extent it does manifest, he is going to be associated with that - he makes his own luck. I still don't see the Lot showering him with goodies though - it's a hard struggle to get to his goal. And I still think that the Lot ruler is Mars - nowhere have I come across a Hellenistic author transferring the 'control' of the Lot to a planet other than its domicile Lord. There may of course be assistance from Sun and Saturn, as Trigon and Bound Lords but Mars is still the Domicile Lord and the first planet that we look to for the Lot. Now in practice that might not mean there's much between us on that - it could be simply a matter of emphasis.

One last point on Fortune - it is configured to the Ascendant, even though it's Lord is not, so things that befall Obama are more likely to be favourable than unfavourable. Mars is also in it's own Bounds, so it is not without dignity - the problem really is more one of being able to spot and then take advantage of opportunities (and avoid threats) - which of course might well mean that opportunities are missed more than they should be. Again this seems to be Schmidt's view.

Saturn is in his own joy, but the twelfth is cadent. Schmidt sees cadent houses as leading planets in them to deflect their 'agenda' away from the native. Now that can be both good and bad things. If Fortune isn't going to shower him with goodies, this probably still means that others will get credit for his actions and others will get the blame for his failures - mud won't stick. That is a great asset for a politician.

It will be interesting to see how the alternative view plays out in examining his career.
Top   #236
Marius Cojoc  Marius Cojoc is offline
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That's why I didn't give sect points to Sun, on Part of Fortune schema, and I mentained that the Parts are hardly readable. Even if I favor Sun to be Epikratetor, the chart remain nocturnal. I think Valens and Porphyry would have gone with the Moon.

The Trigon Lords, from hellenistic perspective, split the time in two portions. If the Moon is the Epikratetor, the wind ruled by Jupiter will blow permanently. The Trigon Lords are based on a dihotomic principle: first lord of triplicity it's analogic with lunar things (matter, night, instinct, simultaneous things) and the second triplicity lord is analogic with solar things (form, day, consciousness, evolution, subsequent things). The third is anologic with both semnification but conjoint. That's why in arabian period they recived special meanings. The winds will lead the ship to unknow surroundings but this is not necessairly bad for the native.

With Sun as a ruler, we will have the folowing order : Jupiter in the first stage of life, Sun in the second stage of life and Saturn permanently. The second stage of life will be in the spot light.

Antiochus describe the meaning of Participation. In Aries, Mars is acting as steward for the Sun. Mars is forced to sher his rulership with the Sun. That's why Mars prefer Scorpio, it's feminine domicile. Scorpio dosen't have an exaltation lord. In Scorpio, Mars dosen't sher his power. If the domicile lord is neither present nor looking upon the zoidion that it rules, the exaltation lord may have sole authority of that zoidion.

Check out Firdaria. Obama was elected president in 2008, a Sun-Mercury period and re-elected in 2012 , a Sun-Jupiter period.

Let's twist! I will go for the Moon as well, to see if the chart fits. Wish me luck !
Top   #237
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Minderwiz, I have a question about the release. I released from Libra (Fortune) and since in the beginning of this month there was a Loose of bond, expected Virgo which is ninth house to bring me some luck in my dealings with our overseas move. However, up till today, I've got only rejections and despite the horary you did for me, I'm actually quite concerned that I can't find a place to stay there. Now, should I release from Virgo instead which contains Venus? Or should I release from Aries as a point of Spirit - me trying to change the circumstances?

Ok, I took a look at my Firdaria too. I'm currently in Moon/Venus (how appropriate considering matters of the heart ). However, I've travelled before mainly under the Mercury influence (rules the 9th whole house) but I also found a year of extensive travel in my earlier years was Venus/Moon, so exactly the opposite of now. Venus rules the 10th (and 5th) but it is in the 9th natally in reception with Mercury. Should I take the reception in consideration as if each time Venus is in the game she brings forward Mercury too? Moon I take as family matters and it's also appropriate as in all these cases I've travelled with/for family. I'm not sure if I should look at Mars too as ruler of the 4th , aside from the fact that he is already in the 7th natally, ruled by the Moon, so probably he's activated under the Moon's rulership.

When I moved for my marriage, it's been Mercusy/Venus (both related to the 9th are active). But next move has been Moon/Mars and this is a return to the 4th natal (my home country) which makes me believe Mars shouldn't be used for "away from here" moves. Apparently he shows up for "back here".
Top   #238
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mahafrins  mahafrins is offline
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I believe we are going to through saturn retrograde was wondering how do i deal with it?
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahafrins View Post
I believe we are going to through saturn retrograde was wondering how do i deal with it?
Don't you think it would depend on what Saturn rules in your chart, what aspects he has natally, how he is placed, and where he is transiting and with what aspects?

And, two weeks from him turning direct, I'd expect the dealing to be nearly over, so you should already have a good idea how you dealt with it.
Top   #240
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