[Philippe]

D'Odoucet's science des signes contains the coloured illustrations of all the 78 cards.

[Philippe]

The 2 first cards :

[kwaw]

Is his science et signs available online?

[Philippe]

Originally Posted by kwaw

Is his science et signs available online?

It was indeed but the link doesn't work anymore.

[MikeH]

Philippe, you would do us a great service if you could make available whatever images you have of these cards, or at least cards 3-21. Or at least cards 3-8 and 14 (the devils, with or without clothes and a second number on top.) I notice that some of the writing of card 2 is cut off in your image. If you have more of that card, it would be of interest to see it. I am very glad you showed us card 1, with its distinctive but tentative sunburst. It became more definite later.

The identification of Lemarque & Mignot as the predecessor of Grimaud's Grand Etteilla I (and Petit Etteilla) is very helpful. Thanks, Corodil. Also, from Kwaw, that Lemarque & Mignot published a Petit Etteilla in 1860. So they might also have done a Grand Etteilla. It would be nice to know when the firm was first established.

Also, thanks for the link to the German book and the excerpt from DDD on the German Grand Etteilla I, Kwaw. I had forgotten their remark about the republication in 1857.

[MikeH]

Corodil wrote

A usefull information from a special edition of the magazine "As de Tréfle" 10/98.
This special edition of the magazine was also the catalogue of the exposition "Il était une fois B.P. GRIMAUD" from 1998 in the Musée francais de la carte à jouer in Issy Les Moulineaux, (page 14).
According to this source (a quite knowledgeable one) the Grand Etteilla comes from Lequart et Mignot and not from Pussey.

Translation:

Somewhere else in the catalogue is mentioned that Pussey was bought by Grimaud in 1890 and Lequart and Mignot in 1891.

If the Grimaud Garnd Etteilla comes from Lequart et Mignot, what is Pussey doing with a Grand Etteilla in 1880? Surely the date-range by d'Allemagne (the original owner of the BnF's Pussey deck) is not wrong; he was a card historian. Also, what is Grimaud doing with a pre-tax stamp production of the deck, if they only acquired the rights to it in 1891?

[kwaw]

Also, what is Grimaud doing with a pre-tax stamp production of the deck, if they only acquired the rights to it in 1891?

I am not sure what the tax stamp procedure was, but I suppose they were stamped prior to going out to retailers?

The BnF copy was part of the George Marteau collection, it is possible through his connection with Grimaud (directeur de la fabrique de cartes à jouer Grimaud) that his was a production copy, not retailed, and thus not stamped?

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

I am not sure what the tax stamp procedure was, but I suppose they were stamped prior to going out to retailers?

The BnF copy was part of the George Marteau collection, it is possible through his connection with Grimaud (directeur de la fabrique de cartes à jouer Grimaud) that his was a production copy, not retailed, and thus not stamped?

I've just quickly checked several post 1890 Grimaud decks at the BnF from the Georges Marteau collection, some are stamped, some are not. So a lack of a stamp on cards from his collection is not a reliable indicator of dating. But if the date the BnF records show (Grand Etteilla - 1890) were from him, surely as a director of the firm he would know...

Also, re: my previous link, a transfer of funds between L&M and Grimaud was made in September 1890, so perhaps the takeover was in the last quarter of 1890, not 1891?

[kwaw]

There is a German Etteilla at the British Museum:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1

Number 1 has Etteilla and signature der Forschende, as per the description I linked to earlier:

Die Karte Nummer 1. hat die Ueberschrift: Etteilla, und die Unterschrift: der Forschende. Figur stellt ein blaues Wolkengemisch vor, mit hellgelben klaren Wolke. Oben an der linken ist das gewöhnliche Zeichen des Widders. Auf Karte ist die Nummer unten nochmals, jedoch umgekehrt.



The card number 1. Has the caption: Etteilla, and the signature: the researchers. The figure presents a mix of blue clouds with a pale yellow clear of clouds. Above on the left is the usual sign of Aries. On the card again is the number on the bottom, but reversed.

To add to the confusion there is also this Grand Etteilla Type I which they date to c.1800-1850 ? (it has the old BM Library stamp 12 April 1860 - so it would appear to be 1860 or earlier) -- the address on the book is Paris : tous les marchands de nouveautés (same as that for the 'L'Oracles des Dames' earlier in the thread), it is very similar to the BnF Grimaud 1890, it has the sunburst trump I, and the additional numbers on trumps 13-17, the ace of clubs has 'naissance' for the upright position, and 'chute' for reversed, the figures on 14 are clothed, some reversed titles are printed upright (e.g., questioners 1 & 8, the elements and virtue cards), it doesn't show or describe the back, so can't compare that aspect with the BnF, the sizes are slightly different BnF = 118mm x 66mm; BM = 115mm x 65mm:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...jectid=3261525

Here is listed all their 21 Etteilla related items:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...hText=Etteilla

One of them isn't an Etteilla, but another set of cards that has somehow ended up in an Etteilla wrapper/box.

Another example of which is this Conver TdM which has been put in a L'Oracle des Dames box:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...jectid=3336720

[kwaw]

As well as joint projects between Grimaud and the two firms, they also seem to have had projects together. The Jeu du Petit Sorcier, 1870-1880 by L&M for example, comes with a booklet Comprend : Art de tirer les cartes avec le Sorcier des Salons by H. Pussey:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv...et%20Mignot%22